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**The King of the Golden Hall** - 3. “Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!”

squire
Half-elven


Oct 21 2015, 11:42am

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**The King of the Golden Hall** - 3. “Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!” Can't Post

Chapter III.6 of The Lord of the Rings is our discussion topic this week. At this point in our reading, having defeated Wormtongue, Gandalf attempts to rouse Theoden to take action rather than await defeat. Theoden wakes up, reforms his councilors and resolves to go to battle himself.

III. The King of the Golden Hall
Gandalf invites Theoden to leave his darkened hall and “look abroad”. He promises, if Theoden will not despair, words of counsel that “are not for all ears”. Theoden totters forth, guided by the woman in white, out the doors and onto the porch, where a brisk wind is blowing. Gandalf bids the guards, and the lady, to leave them alone. She, named as Eowyn the King’s niece, leaves but not before striking a pose of fair nobility and exchanging a meaningful glance with Aragorn(!).
‘It is not so dark here,’ said Théoden.
‘No,’ said Gandalf. ‘Nor does age lie so heavily on your shoulders as some would have you think. Cast aside your prop!’
From the king’s hand the black staff fell clattering on the stones. He drew himself up, slowly, as a man that is stiff from long bending over some dull toil. Now tall and straight he stood, and his eyes were blue as he looked into the opening sky.
‘Dark have been my dreams of late,’ he said, ‘but I feel as one new-awakened. I would now that you had come before, Gandalf. For I fear that already you have come too late, only to see the last days of my house. Not long now shall stand the high hall which Brego son of Eorl built. Fire shall devour the high seat. What is to be done?’
‘Much,’ said Gandalf. ‘But first send for Éomer. Do I not guess rightly that you hold him prisoner, by the counsel of Gríma, of him that all save you name the Wormtongue?’
‘It is true,’ said Théoden. ‘He had rebelled against my commands, and threatened death to Gríma in my hall.’
‘A man may love you and yet not love Wormtongue or his counsels’ said Gandalf.
‘That may be. I will do as you ask. Call Háma to me. Since he proved untrusty as a doorward, let him become an errand-runner. The guilty shall bring the guilty to judgement,’ said Théoden, and his voice was grim, yet he looked at Gandalf and smiled and as he did so many lines of care were smoothed away and did not return. –
LotR, III.6

A. OK. What exactly ‘cures’ Theoden, so that he ‘falters’ to the door, but almost immediately stands up straight, recognizes Gandalf for the savior he is, and loses fifteen years on his face by smiling?



Theoden and Gandalf, by Kakomicly.

Compare: “…you have come too late, only to see the last days of my house. Not long now shall stand the high hall which Brego son of Eorl built. Fire shall devour the high seat” vs. “But soon all shall be burned. The West has failed. It shall all go up in a great fire, and all shall be ended.”
B. Why does Gandalf succeed at this point with Theoden, but will not with Denethor?

Gandalf then sits with Theoden, and tells him…
‘…The enemy is strong beyond our reckoning, yet we have a hope at which he has not guessed.’
Quickly now Gandalf spoke. His voice was low and secret, and none save the king heard what he said. But ever as he spoke the light shone brighter in Théoden’s eye, and at the last he rose from his seat to his full height, and Gandalf beside him, and together they looked out from the high place towards the East.
‘Verily,’ said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, keen and clear, ‘that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear. Doom hangs still on a thread. Yet hope there is still, if we can but stand unconquered for a little while.’ –
ibid.


C. OK, does Gandalf actually tell Theoden about the One Ring and Frodo’s ‘fool’s hope’ of a quest?

Theoden wearies again, “against the will of Gandalf.” He misses “the peace which I have earned.” In a little while we will hear Grima reinforce this sentiment, when he says of the King, “…those who truly love him would spare his failing years.”
D. Is Theoden right? Should history and fate step aside for the fraility of an aged person? An aged ruler?

“He clutched his knees with his wrinkled hands”. Gandalf advises him to grab a sword, any sword, instead of his knees. The king realizes that he no longer has his own (‘Where has Gríma stowed it?’), but just then Eomer appears, out of armor, kneeling, presenting his sword and his service. Theoden is affronted that Eomer, a law-breaker called for judgement, should be armed.
E. Why? Is this outrage a sign of King Theoden’s weakness, or strength?

At Gandalf’s urging, Theoden ignores Hama’s and Eomer’s breach of law and order, and takes the offered sword.
Slowly Théoden stretched forth his hand. As his fingers took the hilt, it seemed to the watchers that firmness and strength returned to his thin arm. Suddenly he lifted the blade and swung it shimmering and whistling in the air. Then he gave a great cry. His voice rang clear as he chanted in the tongue of Rohan a call to arms.
“Arise now, arise, Riders of Théoden!
Dire deeds awake, dark is it eastward.
Let horse be bridled, horn be sounded!
Forth Eorlingas!”

The guards, thinking that they were summoned, sprang up the stair. They looked at their lord in amazement, and then as one man they drew their swords and laid them at his feet. ‘Command us!’ they said. –
ibid.

F. I love this scene.

‘…firmness and strength returned to his thin arm.’
G. How did Gandalf know that a sword was part of Theoden’s cure? Is there anywhere else in the story where a sword restores health, vigor, or strength?


Theoden, by Howe.

Theoden asks Gandalf for the counsel that he offered back in the hall. Gandalf says, ‘You have yourself already taken it,’ in that he has restored Eomer and deposed Grima, and ‘cast aside regret and fear’. But Gandalf then goes on to itemize a list that Theoden has not yet thought of: 1) take every spare Rider and go west immediately to confront the forces of Saruman, at whatever risk; 2) realize that if you win against Saruman, you will then have to fight with Gondor against Sauron; 3) evacuate Edoras and send the civilians to the hills, where refuge has been prepared for them. Theoden agrees, and signs on Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli for good measure. But he contradicts Gandalf’s assumption that he will lead the retreat of the women, children, and aged to the hills, saying ‘“I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.’”
H. What is the difference between Gandalf’s irresistible influence as a counselor on Theoden, and Wormtongue’s?

Theoden’s words, quoted above, inspired a fan to write Tolkien that such mock-archaic dialogue was Ossianic (referring to a famous pseudo-epic of the early Romantic era), or ‘tush’, and should have been dispensed with. This is, of course, a common criticism of The Lord of the Rings ("Lo!" exclaimed Arrowroot, rising from his knees. “If he says that once more," said Gimlet, "I'll croak him myself."). Tolkien wrote the following defense of his neo-medieval style:
I always feel [pain] when anyone – in an age when almost all auctorial manhandling of English is permitted (especially if disruptive) in the name of art or 'personal expression' – immediately dismisses out of court deliberate 'archaism'. The proper use of 'tushery' is to apply it to the kind of bogus 'medieval' stuff which attempts (without knowledge) to give a supposed temporal colour with expletives, such as tush, pish, zounds, marry, and the like. But a real archaic English is far more terse than modern; also many of things said could not be said in our slack and often frivolous idiom. … But take an example from the chapter that you specially singled out (and called terrible): Book iii, "The King of the Golden Hall'. 'Nay, Gandalf!' said the King. 'You do not know your own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall in the front of the battle, if it must be. Thus shall I sleep better.'

This is a fair sample — moderated or watered archaism. Using only words that still are used or known to the educated, the King would really have said: 'Nay, thou (n')wost not thine own skill in healing. It shall not be so. I myself will go to war, to fall . . .' etc. I know well enough what a modern would say. 'Not at all my dear G. You don't know your own skill as a doctor. Things aren't going to be like that. I shall go to the war in person, even if I have to be one of the first casualties' — and then what? Theoden would certainly think, and probably say 'thus shall I sleep better'! But people who think like that just do not talk a modern idiom. You can have 'I shall lie easier in my grave', or 'I should sleep sounder in my grave like that rather than if I stayed at home' – if you like. But there would be an insincerity of thought, a disunion of word and meaning. For a King who spoke in a modern style would not really think in such terms at all, and any reference to sleeping quietly in the grave would be a deliberate archaism of expression on his part (however worded) far more bogus than the actual 'archaic' English that I have used. Like some non-Christian making a reference to some Christian belief which did not in fact move him at all. –
Letter 171, to Hugh Brogan, Sept. 1955, in Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien.

I. Do you agree or disagree that a sincere use of archaism is necessary for an author to portray a character like Theoden, in a setting like Rohan?


Theoden, by Johnstone.

J. What have you thought of other attempts, successful or otherwise, to write dialogue representing an essentially medieval or pagan world-view in fiction or on the screen?



squire online:
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 21 2015, 5:58pm

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A. OK. What exactly ‘cures’ Theoden, so that he ‘falters’ to the door, but almost immediately stands up straight, recognizes Gandalf for the savior he is, and loses fifteen years on his face by smiling?

Magic. A while back I found an article by Dan McCoy on magic as a thing in Norse and Germanic culture http://(http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/magic/ ) That culture, of course, produced many of the works that influenced Tolkien. McCoy proposes that some Germanic magic was thought to work by persuasion, an idea that I'm finding very serviceable for odd, magical-seeming goings on in this read-through. McCoy says:


Quote

... in order to bind another – that is, to transform the desires of another so that they aid the fulfillment of one’s own desires – one must work with the other’s existing desires. To compel someone to believe or to do something in accordance with one’s own will, one must present the belief or action in such a way that the person feels it to be in accordance with his or her own will, thereby satisfying the desires of both the enchanter and the enchanted. Whether this ends up helping or harming the person upon whom the magic is worked is beside the point here; either can be the case depending on the context. The point is that magic can only be successful if it satisfies the desires of all involved in the working.


So I think what is going on is that on the one hand Theoden desires to despair, give up, have a quiet life, and that has provided material for Saruman and Wormtongue to work with. But on the other hand Theoden desires to do what is right, live up to his illustrious forebears (or three of them anyway Wink) and get out in the fresh air and wallop someone with a sword like a true-born Rider of Rohan. That gives Gandalf material to work with.

B. Why does Gandalf succeed at this point with Theoden, but will not with Denethor?
Because Denethor has no desire to do what Gandalf wants, so there is no little flicker that can be fanned into a flame (...or is that metaphor a bit unfortunate, given what Denethor does decide to do?). Or, possibly, Denethor has been magicked by the Big Bad himself (through the palantir) so he's a lot further gone. But I prefer the first idea , myself!

C. OK, does Gandalf actually tell Theoden about the One Ring and Frodo’s ‘fool’s hope’ of a quest?
I imagine not very much (it's ultra secret, & anyone who knows about it can jeopardize Frodo if captured etc.) But some vague but convincing idea that a nasty surprise is being prepared for Sauron might do. But we will never know, will we!

D. Is Theoden right? Should history and fate step aside for the fraility of an aged person? An aged ruler?
No. Life is unfair.

E. Why? Is this outrage a sign of King Theoden’s weakness, or strength?
Theoden checks that his authority is not being flouted. Hama has a reasonable explanation for arming Eomer, and Theoden is satisfied. I think it's part of the Rohirrim culture of expecting someone to use their judgement: it would be only reasonable not to blame people if their judgement as sensible but unexpected. So I vote "strength" - he doesn't have to have the letter of his instructions carried out, just to show them who is boss.

F. I love this scene.
Good, isn't it.

G. How did Gandalf know that a sword was part of Theoden’s cure? Is there anywhere else in the story where a sword restores health, vigor, or strength?
Part 1: Gandalf is an acute observer of people. And I think the sword reflects a desire Theoden has, that Gandalf can inflame
Other swords - can't think of any (bet I'm missing some)!

H. What is the difference between Gandalf’s irresistible influence as a counselor on Theoden, and Wormtongue’s?

In his heart, Theoden knows that Gandalf is right - following Womtongue's advice always went against the grain, somewhat.

I. Do you agree or disagree that a sincere use of archaism is necessary for an author to portray a character like Theoden, in a setting like Rohan?
Tushery! (from an fake archaic exclamation "Pish Tush!" made up by Sir Walter Scott, I believe, and nothing to do with the female posterior viewed as an objectivised item for enjoyment....)

Getting the tone right is difficult for a fantasy author. There's a great essay “From Elfland to Poughkeepsie,” by Ursula K. Le Guin that has shudder-inducing examples of characters who speak like modern politicians on the one hand, or (on the other) are written by someone who seems to be trying to do the King James Bible without having the least idea of how to. Verily I say unto thee, how much that sucketh and sticketh in the craw!

This le Guin essay also contains the observation that wizards, for some reason, have to speak in the subjunctive (but be that as it may).

Tolkien of course shows us what to do.

J. What have you thought of other attempts, successful or otherwise, to write dialogue representing an essentially medieval or pagan world-view in fiction or on the screen?
I think it's difficult, as its easy to give the characters notions that are too modern. Anita Mason's novel The Illusionist (which is set among the various religious sects of in Judea in 1st century AD) does really well, I think. I'm sure there are other good ones.

Well, I'm a bit surprised to be able to respond to the whole slate of squire questions! They are always very thought-provoking questions, & my brain gives up before the end, so I pick off a few & hope to come back & think about the others later. This reply is beginning to look like a Darkstone one - though not so good, of course.

This Means Something!
Wink

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


oliphaunt
Lorien


Oct 21 2015, 6:27pm

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A. OK. What exactly ‘cures’ Theoden, so that he ‘falters’ to the door, but almost immediately stands up straight, recognizes Gandalf for the savior he is, and loses fifteen years on his face by smiling?
Cognitive dissonance was removed by Theoden heeding Gandalf's encouragement. Plus the secretly worn ring with the red stone...

B. Why does Gandalf succeed at this point with Theoden, but will not with Denethor?
Theoden does not despair and has hope. Denethor despairs and hope fails. Hope is aligned with faith in a greater power.

C. OK, does Gandalf actually tell Theoden about the One Ring and Frodo’s ‘fool’s hope’ of a quest?
That conversation was not for my ears, as I am no king. But, yes, I think he told him something about it.

D. Is Theoden right? Should history and fate step aside for the fraility of an aged person? An aged ruler?
It won't, should is irrelevant. They need to have the wisdom and humility to pass on power when their strength is insufficient. Remember the problem with the Numenoreans who refused to pass on the sceptre? Theoden still had the strength to maintain his kingship.

E. Why? Is this outrage a sign of King Theoden’s weakness, or strength?
Because the King's decree was not being followed. In a military structure, it is important that rules are followed. But, Theoden does immediately recant his prior decree, and agrees it was mistaken.

F. I love this scene.
It makes me want to be a Rider!

G. How did Gandalf know that a sword was part of Theoden’s cure? Is there anywhere else in the story where a sword restores health, vigor, or strength?
G understood that Theoden was thinking in a disordered way, imagining his own frailty. The cure was not the sword, but the willingness to pick it up. And ouf course there is that secret ring with the red stone!
Aragorn needed Narsil. Oh, and when Bilbo realized that his sword was made in Gondolin by the elves it gave him encouragement.

I. Do you agree or disagree that a sincere use of archaism is necessary for an author to portray a character like Theoden, in a setting like Rohan?
I think Theoden fits perfectly in Rohan.
But then I've already noticed that *my* speaking English is a bit archaic. I've barely been speaking it for 50 year, and I'm falling behind. I have no intention to change.

J. What have you thought of other attempts, successful or otherwise, to write dialogue representing an essentially medieval or pagan world-view in fiction or on the screen
I found Monty Python and the Holy Grail hysterically funny!


enanito
Rohan

Oct 21 2015, 6:27pm

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Theoden is unique in the sense that he had been personally 'bewitched' by Saruman's powers (as opposed to many who suffered more generalized effects of Sauron/Saruman). And the previous scenes show him striving to overcome the effects of that sorcery which had intertwined itself into his very being. I think for Theoden, grasping the sword is the physical manifestation of his determination to leave the darkness behind. With magic spells, sometimes simply wanting to break it isn't enough, it may require a physical choice to overcome the mental dominance of another.


Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien


Oct 21 2015, 8:54pm

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A. OK. What exactly ‘cures’ Theoden, so that he ‘falters’ to the door, but almost immediately stands up straight, recognizes Gandalf for the savior he is, and loses fifteen years on his face by smiling?
I think Theoden's cure began a bit earlier in the chapter. Going back to when Gandalf first enters, Theoden gives his "Why should I welcome you, Gandalf Stormcrow?" speech. Theoden then doesn't say another word for a while -- there's just back and forth between Grima and Gandalf. Gandalf sings of Galadriel and then reveals himself as the White Wizard. He silences Grima with some magic flash. Then, he says to Theoden:

Quote
Now Theoden, son of Thengel, will you hearken to me?...Do you ask for help?...Take courage...I bid you come out before your doors and look abroad. Too long have you sat in shadows and trusted to twisted tales and crooked promptings.

WIthout a word, the king leaves his chair. "A faint light grew in the hall again." This simple act - merely standing and heading outside in hope of finding light, in following Gandalf's counsel, is when his healing begins. Even the hall is lightened by the king's hope. He obeyed Gandalf's first command to "Take courage." His first words:

Quote
Go, Eowyn sister-daughter!... The time for fear is past."

The cure has begun. Gandalf says, "Breathe the free air again!" He looks around and assesses that the world isn't as bad as it seemed from Grima's reports in the darkness of his hall. Grima had succeeded in isolating Theoden -- not just from his family and friends, but from nature. He was really in a prison of his own making, focused on dark thoughts. Listening to Gandalf instead of Grima was the first step in his cure. Going outside was the second. Taking a good look around and "breathing the free air" confirmed what Gandalf was saying -- that the storm was receding, that a shaft of sun shone through the clouds, and its rains brought fresh water. As Gandalf said, "Not all is dark."

I think there's something a little mystical happening here -- not as much as Peter Jackson's version, but something a bit magical about both Grima's persuasiveness and Gandalf's opposition of him. But, Theoden does remind me of many I know struggling with depression -- the crippling effect of dark, crooked thoughts that black-wash all of the good out of memories, and the tendency to nest and self-isolate at home, alone, losing all perspective, losing hope that things will ever get better. It seems like it can take a wizard to reach people who are so depressed, but it doesn't always.


(This post was edited by Entwife Wandlimb on Oct 21 2015, 9:01pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 21 2015, 9:04pm

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"Yondah lies da castle of my foddah da king!" [In reply to] Can't Post

I sat upon the shore
Fishing, with the arid plain behind me
Shall I at least set my lands in order?

-TS Eliot, The Waste Land


A. OK. What exactly ‘cures’ Theoden, so that he ‘falters’ to the door, but almost immediately stands up straight, recognizes Gandalf for the savior he is, and loses fifteen years on his face by smiling?

"Now, lord," said Gandalf,"look out upon your land! Breathe the free air again!"

The king and the land are one.


Compare: “…you have come too late, only to see the last days of my house. Not long now shall stand the high hall which Brego son of Eorl built. Fire shall devour the high seat” vs. “But soon all shall be burned. The West has failed. It shall all go up in a great fire, and all shall be ended.”
B. Why does Gandalf succeed at this point with Theoden, but will not with Denethor?


There’s a big difference between sonless Theoden being succeeded by his sister-son versus sonless Denethor being succeeded by a non-relation “but of the line of Isildur…. last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity”.


C. OK, does Gandalf actually tell Theoden about the One Ring and Frodo’s ‘fool’s hope’ of a quest?

Either that or Denethor’s going to be booted off Gondor’s throne by Aragorn.

(“…yet we have a hope! *nudge nudge, wink wink*)


Theoden wearies again, “against the will of Gandalf.” He misses “the peace which I have earned.” In a little while we will hear Grima reinforce this sentiment, when he says of the King, “…those who truly love him would spare his failing years.”
D. Is Theoden right? Should history and fate step aside for the fraility of an aged person? An aged ruler?


Actually it’s totally wrong, given the supposed background of Anglo-Saxon culture. Dying in battle was an honorable act that earned a brave and proud warrior a place in Valhalla, as opposed to an ignoble death in bed that landed you in Niflheim. Indeed, Anglo-Saxon tribes would usually deliberately stage skirmishes in late autumn just so aged warriors could have a noble death in battle rather than suffer an ignoble death of winter sickness.

As for Theoden, death in battle is the ultimate obligation of a lord in protecting his people, as seen in Anglo-Saxon literature such as Beowulf and The Battle of Maldon.


. Theoden is affronted that Eomer, a law-breaker called for judgement, should be armed.
E. Why? Is this outrage a sign of King Theoden’s weakness, or strength?


It’s a sign of his authority. A coat-of-arms is a license to bear arms. Such license can only come from one’s lord. As a law-breaker and prisoner obviously Eomer’s license has been revoked. For Hama to take it upon himself to restore such license is an usurpation of Theoden’s authority. Theoden is making quite sure that everyone realizes he’s back in charge and is using Eomer and Hama to drive that point home.


F. I love this scene.

One is reminded of samurai.


‘…firmness and strength returned to his thin arm.’
G. How did Gandalf know that a sword was part of Theoden’s cure?


The warrior and his sword are one.


Is there anywhere else in the story where a sword restores health, vigor, or strength?

All other times it seems to be the opposite.


H. What is the difference between Gandalf’s irresistible influence as a counselor on Theoden, and Wormtongue’s?

Picture a little haloed and winged Gandalf on Theoden’s right shoulder and a little horned and fork-tailed Wormtongue on the left.


I. Do you agree or disagree that a sincere use of archaism is necessary for an author to portray a character like Theoden, in a setting like Rohan?

Archaism (and the more extreme, dialectism) helps differentiate characters and settings for the reader. Thus there is reduced chance of the reader mixing up Denethor and Theoden, or Gondor and Rohan.


J. What have you thought of other attempts, successful or otherwise, to write dialogue representing an essentially medieval or pagan world-view in fiction or on the screen?

I liked Thor’s dialogue in the Silver Age comics and the recent Marvel films. Otherwise Det Sjunde Inseglet (1957) and Les Visiteurs (1993) are good.

Probably my favorite mashup is the dialogue and lyrics in the 1927 musical “A Connecticut Yankee” by Richard Rodgers and Lorenz Hart. This duet for example:

(Connecticutensian Hank Morgan, aka "The Boss"):
Thou swell! Thou witty!
Thou sweet! Thou grand!
Wouldst kiss me pretty?
Wouldst hold my hand?
Both thine eyes are cute too;
what they do to me.
Hear me holler I choose a Sweet lollapaloosa in thee.
I’d feel so rich in a hut for two,
Two rooms and kitchen I’m sure would do.
Give me just a plot of,
Not a lot of land.
And Thou swell! Thou Witty! Thou Grand!


(Demoiselle Alisande a la Carteloise, aka "Sandy"):
Thy words are queer, Sir,
Unto mine ear, Sir,
Yet thou’rt a dear, Sir, to me.
Thou could’st woo me,
Now could’st thou try, Sir,
I’d murmur “Swell”, too,
And like it well, too.
More thou wilt tell to Sandy,
Thou art dandy,
Now art thou my knight.
Thine arms are martial;
Thou hast grace,
My cheek is partial to thy face.
And if thy lips grow weary,
Mine are thy resting place.


(BTW, Tony Curtis never said “Yondah lies da castle of my foddah da king!” in any of his movies.)

******************************************

"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."


squire
Half-elven


Oct 21 2015, 9:57pm

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Tolkien wrote in 1955, "I always feel [pain] when anyone – in an age when almost all auctorial manhandling of English is permitted (especially if disruptive) in the name of art or 'personal expression' – immediately dismisses out of court deliberate 'archaism'" (bold by squire). It's almost as if he forebode "that worse yet lay in the dregs" of the 1960s.




Stan Lee wrote Thor's classically archaic dialogue, just on the edge of tushery and almost always in sharp contrast to the speech of the everyday New Yorkers whom the God of Thunder lived among. However, I'm not sure if Lee was sympathizing with Tolkien, or laughing at him.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Al Carondas
Lorien

Oct 21 2015, 10:51pm

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Great job, Squire! Thank you. It's been fun following along. I particularly love the artwork! I only wish I had more time to respond.

C. OK, does Gandalf actually tell Theoden about the One Ring and Frodo’s ‘fool’s hope’ of a quest?

Actually, we can be sure he did not. We hear Gandalf utter these words to Theoden later:

'If Eomer had not defied Wormtongue's voice speaking with your mouth, those Orcs would have reached Isengard by now, bearing a great prize. Not indeed that prize which Saruman desires above all else, but at the least two members of my Company, sharers of a secret hope, of which even to you, lord, I cannot yet speak openly.'

Perhaps the earlier whispering between the two had to do with Aragorn and his imminent return to Mundburg. At least, that's my guess.

"Good Morning!"


Al Carondas
Lorien

Oct 21 2015, 11:14pm

Post #9 of 18 (4446 views)
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Saruman's magic [In reply to] Can't Post

A. OK. What exactly ‘cures’ Theoden, so that he ‘falters’ to the door, but almost immediately stands up straight, recognizes Gandalf for the savior he is, and loses fifteen years on his face by smiling?

B. Why does Gandalf succeed at this point with Theoden, but will not with Denethor?


Well, of what does Theoden really need to be cured? He really isn't that old or weak. He has just been convinced to think of himself that way.

I think it is another classic Tolkienian showdown between Hope and Despair. I agree with noWizardme's great insights on the nature of magic and think that Theoden is being controlled through the manipulation of his own existing fears. They are real fears, but Grima's lies magnify their import in Theoden's mind. He is being convinced to give up hope. All is dark. There is no point in trying to fight it. 'Resistance is useless'. Super villains all say that, don't they? And we are all vulnerable to believing it, I think. That's why they all say it. It makes their job that much easier.

But also within Theoden is Hope and a will to fight the good fight, even should the battle end up being a losing one. Only, Grima has influenced him to forget those things. Gandalf dispels the dark cloud that is dominating Theoden's thoughts and shows him the light that is also there. The magic is really all within Theoden himself, although he is at the mercy of other powers that influence which of his own thoughts he dwells on.

So, basically: what noWizardme said. Wink

"Good Morning!"


Al Carondas
Lorien

Oct 21 2015, 11:29pm

Post #10 of 18 (4441 views)
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Oh, yeah. [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot to answer the Denethor part. Blush

I do think that Denethor is more prone to give in to despair because he is being manipulated by a sneakier super villain. Sauron is better at making Denethor see only the darkness.

But I also think that Denethor is more vulnerable because he is falling from a greater height, as it were. His forebears were from Numenor, and were of a greater majesty and might than those of Theoden. Not that Theoden has anything to be ashamed of, mind you, but I think that Denethor feels a greater pressure and is more vulnerable to the idea that all is already lost. The glory of Numenor will never be again. Thus Denethor should just give up.

Theoden, on the other hand, comes from a people who are proud but have a less lofty opinion of themselves and their place in the grand scheme than Gondor does. Because of this, I think he is more willing to fight a losing battle than Denethor is.

"Good Morning!"


Mikah
Lorien

Oct 21 2015, 11:43pm

Post #11 of 18 (4433 views)
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Exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post

I really think that pride has something to do with it as well. I think this is fantastic insight...you know, the bigger they are the harder they fall. I really think that Sauron's power is greater than Saruman's power...by far. Think of comparing say a barracuda to a shark. While both are dangerous, there really is not much competition between which is more dangerous. Denethor was simply outmatched.


squire
Half-elven


Oct 21 2015, 11:51pm

Post #12 of 18 (4436 views)
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Denethor is also more likely to compete with, or resist, Gandalf's will [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that Denethor's greatness is partly the reason for his fall despite Gandalf's intervention. But it cuts both ways: Gandalf would have had more to do to overcome the depth of Denethor's despair, and Denethor could do a lot more than Theoden could to resist the wizard, seeing him as a competitor and in some ways a threat.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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enanito
Rohan

Oct 21 2015, 11:52pm

Post #13 of 18 (4433 views)
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Sauron learned from the best! [In reply to] Can't Post

And we can see how Sauron's master was able to introduce and control darkness in so many of the greatest. From the beginning, Morgoth's pattern was to identify weak points and introduce discord, then sit back and with little else needed, wait for it to work it's way deep into the hearts of those he was attacking. In Valinor or in M.E., he caused many to take paths (of their own accord) that led to their destruction.

Those desiring power of others were especially susceptible. I think in part Theoden was accepting of his place in the world, and aspired to simply protect his people and land. Kind of like how hobbits were always evil-resistant in large part, because they were content with their lot in life (no adventures here!). Denethor seems more inclined to view himself as deserving to be overlord of many peoples and lands, which while not necessarily evil, may have played into Sauron's hands.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 22 2015, 10:50am

Post #14 of 18 (4413 views)
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Thor point [In reply to] Can't Post

In my memory, characterization in those Marvel comics was about as subtle as the colour printing.

Not that it mattered at all to me then - Stan Lee & his various artists could certainly tell me a story!

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


noWizardme
Half-elven


Oct 22 2015, 1:32pm

Post #15 of 18 (4410 views)
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Character voicing [In reply to] Can't Post

That's an important point - characters who are supposed to be from different backgrounds ought to sound different. That's not at all easy to do - a few times I've been reading dialogue and have had to count backwards through it to work out which character is supposed to have said a certain thing. That's something that really ought to be obvious from the way characters are speaking, if they are from different backgrounds.

Back to Tolkien - I remember reading (in History of Middle Earth) an early draft of Council of Elrond and being struck how everybody talks like Bilbo (like Tolkien talked really, I suspect). The voicing - done especially well in that chapter - was added late on. That makes sense, I suppose - first figure out what your characters need to say; you can polish how they would say it later, if you're writing a first draft about characters you don't know all that well yet.
Tolkien certainly did it well in the end - down to effects such as Aragron, as he tries to talk Boromir round, changes his choice of words so that he sounds more like Boromir (something you'll hear often in real life conversations).

Tolkien is well aware that Aragorn might say that Elendil's heir should labour to repair Elendil's fault. If Frodo is thinking something similar about being Bilbo's heir (an interesting question, come to think of it), he certainly would not express the thought in that way.

~~~~~~

Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064


Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Oct 25 2015, 4:31pm

Post #16 of 18 (4280 views)
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This makes sense to me [In reply to] Can't Post

... as my impression of the "spell" that Theoden was under was meant to strike as his very core, to unman him and have him "walking on all fours like a beast". In order to take back his humanity and become the man he once was, especially in a marital culture like the Rohirrim, he needed the physical symbol of that man - his sword.

_

Heed WBA when building blanket forts.
ITLs don't get enough FAS. :)

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






Elizabeth
Half-elven


Nov 2 2015, 12:00am

Post #17 of 18 (4227 views)
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On the other hand... [In reply to] Can't Post

...at the end of the conversation, together they looked out from the high place towards the East. ‘Verily,’ said Gandalf, now in a loud voice, keen and clear, ‘that way lies our hope, where sits our greatest fear.

That moment is meaningless unless Gandalf has told Théoden of the Quest (though maybe not in detail). Certainly Gandalf cannot "speak openly" with Háma and half the court listening, but Gandalf knows that at least the Three Hunters are listening in this moment, and they know exactly what G is referring to. I believe Théoden does now, as well.








Elizabeth
Half-elven


Nov 2 2015, 12:09am

Post #18 of 18 (4230 views)
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A competitor and a threat [In reply to] Can't Post

Théoden has been led by Grima to think of Gandalf as a harbinger of doom. This perception is fairly easily dispelled by Gandalf's "reveal" in the hall and the breath of "free air." In contrast, Denethor has figured out that Gandalf is aligned with the Heir of Isildur, which is a very real competitor as well as a threat. Later, when Denethor despairs completely, he has still worse news to deal with, but we'll get to that in due course. Wink








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Nov 2 2015, 12:11am)

 
 

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