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squire
Half-elven
Feb 26 2016, 12:37pm
Post #1 of 29
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**The Stairs of Cirith Ungol** 5. Gollum looked at them. A strange expression passed over his lean hungry face.
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We are near the end of this week’s chapter. The tone has gone from horror to meditation, and now…
Summary of today’s section
Some hours after Sam urges Frodo to sleep, Gollum returns and finds both hobbits asleep, Frodo at peace in the arms of Sam. Gollum is strangely affected. He seems to be conflicted between his heart and his head, between where he’s just been, and where he is now. As he hesitantly reaches out to caress Frodo’s knee, his face seems to show his original identity as a hobbit – aged and worn beyond his time, but still able to love a fellow creature.
Frodo stirs at the touch, and Sam wakes instantly. Outraged, he abuses Gollum as a villain and a ‘sneak’. Gollum’s transformation is forgotten. Angry and bitter, he throws Sam’s words back at him. Sam is barely remorseful and briefly apologizes; Gollum begrudges any further conversation. Sam wakes Frodo, who tries to chat Gollum up, but Gollum responds with self-pity and passive aggression. Sam explains himself with poor grace.
Frodo tries to wash the entire spat away by taking up the matter of his agreement with Gollum. He asks, do we need your guidance any further, now that we are in sight of the pass into Mordor? If not, he says, you may go on your way, and “one day I may reward you, I or those who remember me.” But Gollum begs not to be dismissed as their guide. His job is not yet done. He must take them to the tunnel.
Some questions
A. Isn’t it likely that both Frodo and Sam would be dead of hypothermia after sleeping for hours in the open at high altitude in February?
B. Is the physical cradling of Frodo by Sam in their sleep better interpreted as a lovers’ embrace, or as a paternal cuddling of a child?
C. Why highlight that Frodo’s skin is white, while Sam’s is brown?
Tolkien wrote in his letters (most fully in 246, but also in the earlier 96 and 191) that he thinks this scene of Gollum’s ‘near repentance’ is crucial to the book as a whole. I have to admit that, until I read the letters, the scene had flown right by me for years as a younger reader.
D. Do you agree that it is crucial, as Tolkien insisted?
From the context, I gather ‘sneak’ is about the worst thing one hobbit can call another. Again, as a young reader I could only assume ‘sneak’ had some meaning to Tolkien or his generation that it didn’t to me.
E. Why is the word so often repeated and played upon?
F. Why does Frodo choose this place to decide that Gollum has led them as far as they need to be led?
G. Is Frodo serious about telling Gollum to more or less “Go home” from this location in the inaccessible heights of the Ephel Duath?
From the first time we meet him, it’s clear that Gollum is not, at this stage in his life, motivated by thoughts of “rewards” for his service.
H. What is Frodo’s logic when, in order to get Gollum to go far away from the Ring, he promises that he or his friends may one day "reward" Gollum?
In closing this week’s discussion, I offer some general thoughts.
The second part of the chapter is noticeably different from the first, in tone, focus, and action.
I. Is the pause for an Inklings-like discussion of Tales a good structural decision by the author, or an unnecessary and even unlikely invention?
Also at the end of the chapter is the suggestion – buried, perhaps – that, except for Sam’s hot-tempered jealousy of Frodo’s affections, Gollum might well have abandoned his intentions to betray Frodo, and maybe have led them to Mordor by a safe route.
J. Does this contribute to the story enough to include it here on the cliff-hanging verge of entering Mordor itself?
Some pictures
 
1. Van Donovan 2. Paula Berry
I find that most professional or semi-professional Tolkien illustrators prefer to render scenery and architecture, rather than close-in portraits of the characters. Fan artists, if we can make the distinction, seem more willing to focus on favorite characters, perhaps from the same impulse of personal identification as inspires others to write fan-fiction. In any case, it was very hard finding illustrations of the second half of this chapter, which is basically Sam and Frodo talking or sleeping.
K. What parts of or scenes in The Lord of the Rings do you imagine are most difficult, or least popular, for illustrators to tackle?
That’s All, Folks!
Well, that’s it for this week! Thanks to all who responded, and also to all who lurked – we take moral support where we can get it in the Reading Room. On into Shelob’s Lair, and Mordor, with enanito leading the way. Hold your noses!
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Feb 26 2016, 3:18pm
Post #2 of 29
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A. Isn’t it likely that both Frodo and Sam would be dead of hypothermia after sleeping for hours in the open at high altitude in February?
Not when they're wearing Elven cloaks.
B. Is the physical cradling of Frodo by Sam in their sleep better interpreted as a lovers’ embrace, or as a paternal cuddling of a child?
Sam is comforting Frodo, as well as sharing body heat.
C. Why highlight that Frodo’s skin is white, while Sam’s is brown?
Frodo is gentry, he hasn't spent his life gardening. Sam is a gardener, of course he's brown.
D. Do you agree that it is crucial, as Tolkien insisted?
We've been discussing the good/evil struggles of Gollum for chapters. Gandalf, Frodo and the Elves hoped Gollum might be cured. Sadly, he can't make a break and retreats back into familiar patterns. I wouldn't be too critical of Sam's role, though. Gollum has a lot of issues much older and darker than Sam's harsh words.
G. Is Frodo serious about telling Gollum to more or less “Go home” from this location in the inaccessible heights of the Ephel Duath?
H. What is Frodo’s logic when, in order to get Gollum to go far away from the Ring, he promises that he or his friends may one day "reward" Gollum?
Frodo is falling under the influence of the Ring, and beginning to think that he has gifts and powers.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Feb 26 2016, 3:37pm
Post #3 of 29
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A. Isn’t it likely that both Frodo and Sam would be dead of hypothermia after sleeping for hours in the open at high altitude in February?
Actually, this incident should be taking place on March 11. And this is further south so that might make a difference with the night-time temperature.
B. Is the physical cradling of Frodo by Sam in their sleep better interpreted as a lovers’ embrace, or as a paternal cuddling of a child?
I would say it's more indicative of being protective in nature, so the latter.
C. Why highlight that Frodo’s skin is white, while Sam’s is brown?
Perhaps to indicate the toll that is being taken on Frodo.
D. Do you agree that it is crucial, as Tolkien insisted?
I'm not sure about 'crucial', but it does make Sméagol a more rounded, three-dimensional character.
E. Why is the word so often repeated and played upon?
I think that Gollum is genuinely offended by the notion that he could not possibly have good intentions.
F. Why does Frodo choose this place to decide that Gollum has led them as far as they need to be led?
One reason might be concern that Gollum might be too tempted by the Ring after the group enters Mordor. However, Frodo also understands something of Sméagol's suffering.
G. Is Frodo serious about telling Gollum to more or less “Go home” from this location in the inaccessible heights of the Ephel Duath?
Why not? Gollum has escaped (or been released) from Mordor before.
H. What is Frodo’s logic when, in order to get Gollum to go far away from the Ring, he promises that he or his friends may one day "reward" Gollum?
At this point, what else has Frodo to offer other than simple gratitude? The only thing that Gollum wants, and cannot have, is the Ring.
I. Is the pause for an Inklings-like discussion of Tales a good structural decision by the author, or an unnecessary and even unlikely invention?
It does provide a narrative break for the reader where we can feel a bit less gloomy for a few moments.
J. Does this contribute to the story enough to include it here on the cliff-hanging verge of entering Mordor itself?
We don't know that there was a safer route, do we? This did, though, provide Gollum with an opportunity to come clean about the danger of Shelob so that Frodo and Sam could have entered her tunnels better prepared.
"Things need not to have happened to be true.
Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure
when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
- Dream of the Endless
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 26 2016, 4:49pm
Post #5 of 29
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“There's a point, you know, where treachery is so complete and unashamed that it becomes statesmanship.”
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No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other.
-Matthew 6:24
A. Isn’t it likely that both Frodo and Sam would be dead of hypothermia after sleeping for hours in the open at high altitude in February?
They’re hobbits. People with a high BMI have a lower risk of hypothermia. The layer of body fat acts as an insulator, though it’s the skin that tells the brain whether you’re cold or not, so Frodo and Sam would still feel miserable. Interestingly muscle mass generates heat, helping avert hypothermia. It’s a joke amongst physiologists that the ideal body type for surviving hypothermia is someone fat and fit.
B. Is the physical cradling of Frodo by Sam in their sleep better interpreted as a lovers’ embrace, or as a paternal cuddling of a child?
I’d say it’s the practical sharing body heat, but hey, taking advantage of a cold night to cuddle is not an unknown stratagem. In college one young lady of my acquaintance averred her love for my body heat. (BTW, is this the first time they’ve cuddled?)
C. Why highlight that Frodo’s skin is white, while Sam’s is brown?
In the 19th century pale skin was a mark of Byronic beauty, or the sign of someone of wealth who doesn’t have to do manual labor for a living. Brown skin indicated a peasant, someone who has to work outdoors. Of course today the standard is reversed. Pale skin means you’re a poor wage slave who has to work indoors from dawn to dusk. Brown skin means you’ve got enough wealth so you have plenty of leisure time to frolic around outdoors and get a good tan.
Tolkien wrote in his letters (most fully in 246, but also in the earlier 96 and 191) that he thinks this scene of Gollum’s ‘near repentance’ is crucial to the book as a whole. I have to admit that, until I read the letters, the scene had flown right by me for years as a younger reader.
D. Do you agree that it is crucial, as Tolkien insisted?
When I was younger I did. It seemed tragic how close Gollum was to redemption, and sad how Sam rather cruelly pushed him back into damnation.
Now I’m older and more cynical I view Gollum’s action as that of a typical addict who seizes on any excuse to revert back to self-destructive activity and if it wasn’t Sam’s “sneaking” comment it would have been something else. So really Sam gets a bum rap, IMHO.
From the context, I gather ‘sneak’ is about the worst thing one hobbit can call another.
That’s always seemed rather bizarre to me as “sneaking“ is exactly what hobbits do best:
They possessed from the first the art of disappearing swiftly and silently, when large folk whom they do not wish to meet come blundering by; and this art they have developed until to Men it may seem magical. But Hobbits have never, in fact, studied magic of any kind, and their elusiveness is due solely to a professional skill that heredity and practice, and a close friendship with the earth, have rendered inimitable by bigger and clumsier races.
-Prologue
Again, as a young reader I could only assume ‘sneak’ had some meaning to Tolkien or his generation that it didn’t to me.
E. Why is the word so often repeated and played upon?
Well, in British public schools a sneak, or tattletale, was considered a pretty low character by the rest of the boys. For example, from Tom Brown’s Schooldays by Thomas Hughes (bold emphasis mine):
And the bottled-beer being finished, and his hunger appeased, East departed to his study, "that sneak Jones," as he informed them, who had just got into the sixth, and occupied the next study, having instituted a nightly visitation upon East and his chum, to their no small discomfort.
…
"Sneaking little brute," muttered he, regardless of prudence—"clapping on the water-works just in the hardest place; see if I don't punch his head after fourth lesson."
"Whose?" said Tom, to whom the remark seemed to be addressed.
"Why, that little sneak, Arthur's," replied Williams
…
Tom was detained in school a few minutes after the rest, and on coming out into the quadrangle, the first thing he saw was a small ring of boys, applauding Williams, who was holding Arthur by the collar.
"There, you young sneak," said he, giving Arthur a cuff on the head with his other hand; "what made you say that—"
…
"Well, Tom," said he at last, "you see, when you and I came to school there were none of these sort of notions. You may be right—I dare say you are. Only what one has always felt about the masters is, that it's a fair trial of skill and last between us and them—like a match at football or a battle. We're natural enemies in school—that's the fact. We've got to learn so much Latin and Greek, and do so many verses, and they've got to see that we do it. If we can slip the collar and do so much less without getting caught, that's one to us. If they can get more out of us, or catch us shirking, that's one to them. All's fair in war but lying. If I run my luck against theirs, and go into school without looking at my lessons, and don't get called up, why am I a snob or a sneak?”
…
At the entrance of the down there was a steep hillock, like the barrows of Tom's own downs. This mound was the weekly scene of terrific combats, at a game called by the queer name of "mud-patties." The boys who played divided into sides under different leaders, and one side occupied the mound. Then, all parties having provided themselves with many sods of turf, cut with their bread-and-cheese knives, the side which remained at the bottom proceeded to assault the mound, advancing up on all sides under cover of a heavy fire of turfs, and then struggling for victory with the occupants, which was theirs as soon as they could, even for a moment, clear the summit, when they in turn became the besieged. It was a good, rough, dirty game, and of great use in counteracting the sneaking tendencies of the school.
…
“Was Flashman here then?"
"Yes; and a dirty, little, snivelling, sneaking fellow he was too. He never dared join us, and used to toady the bullies by offering to fag for them, and peaching against the rest of us."
…
The storm had cleared the air for the rest of the house, and a better state of things now began than there had been since old Brooke had left; but an angry, dark spot of thunder-cloud still hung over the end of the passage where Flashman's study and that of East and Tom lay.
He felt that they had been the first rebels, and that the rebellion had been to a great extent successful; but what above all stirred the hatred and bitterness of his heart against them was that in the frequent collisions which there had been of late they had openly called him coward and sneak.
F. Why does Frodo choose this place to decide that Gollum has led them as far as they need to be led?
His Spidey-, er, that is, his Ring-sense is tingling. I think he’s sensing that Gollum is overwhelming Smeagol and that he’s no longer safe as a companion.
G. Is Frodo serious about telling Gollum to more or less “Go home” from this location in the inaccessible heights of the Ephel Duath?
Gollum has found his way back to the West from even more inaccessible and dangerous parts of Mordor so sure.
From the first time we meet him, it’s clear that Gollum is not, at this stage in his life, motivated by thoughts of “rewards” for his service.
H. What is Frodo’s logic when, in order to get Gollum to go far away from the Ring, he promises that he or his friends may one day "reward" Gollum?
Desperation.
In closing this week’s discussion, I offer some general thoughts.
The second part of the chapter is noticeably different from the first, in tone, focus, and action.
I. Is the pause for an Inklings-like discussion of Tales a good structural decision by the author, or an unnecessary and even unlikely invention?
About as much so as Strider’s Weathertop Poetry Hour.
Also at the end of the chapter is the suggestion – buried, perhaps – that, except for Sam’s hot-tempered jealousy of Frodo’s affections, Gollum might well have abandoned his intentions to betray Frodo, and maybe have led them to Mordor by a safe route.
That’s for those far more charitable than I.
J. Does this contribute to the story enough to include it here on the cliff-hanging verge of entering Mordor itself?
Unanticipated betrayal is more dramatic than inevitable malice.
I find that most professional or semi-professional Tolkien illustrators prefer to render scenery and architecture, rather than close-in portraits of the characters.
That always bugged me until The Brothers Hildebrandt then I said, um, never mind…
Fan artists, if we can make the distinction, seem more willing to focus on favorite characters, perhaps from the same impulse of personal identification as inspires others to write fan-fiction.
Then you get Ezpeleta.
In any case, it was very hard finding illustrations of the second half of this chapter, which is basically Sam and Frodo talking or sleeping.
K. What parts of or scenes in The Lord of the Rings do you imagine are most difficult, or least popular, for illustrators to tackle?
Treebeard.
That’s All, Folks!
Well, that’s it for this week! Thanks to all who responded, and also to all who lurked – we take moral support where we can get it in the Reading Room.
Great job! Thanks for leading!
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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enanito
Rohan
Feb 26 2016, 4:51pm
Post #6 of 29
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As a song from '79 once said: "I want to know what love is"
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B&D
I feel question (b) and (d) are closely linked. By emphasizing the closeness of the relationship between Sam and Frodo, we then immediately afterwards find Gollum contemplating that scene. And unlike what Sam is convinced will happen if Gollum catches them asleep, Gollum has a very different reaction. To me Gollum here feels an inner pull towards love. Not that romantic type of love, but that band-of-brothers type of trust and closeness that bonds true friendship. He reaches out almost with a caress -- desiring the ability to share in something that if he ever felt when he was young, is completely lost to him since the Ring consumed him.
F
Seems pretty straightforward. He can see the light from Orodruin even if the mountain itself isn't visible yet, and is confident once he traverses the tunnel and crests the pass, he'll know where he's going. Navigating the orc-infested land is another thing, but at least he'll always know which way to point.
I
I really enjoy how the scope swings between the intimate and the vastness of a never-ending-story of good-vs-evil. Tolkien does a great job of managing this ebb and flow. Also, for as incredibly-end-of-the-world crucial that this moment in time seems, sketching an outline of how this fits into a much grander scheme really broadens my perspective.
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enanito
Rohan
Feb 26 2016, 4:58pm
Post #7 of 29
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[Gollum] doth protest too much, methinks
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Gollum's whole life has been that of a sneaker! Lots of other fancy adjectives could describe him, but obviously this one does rub him the wrong way since he's convinced himself it's "someone else" who is going to do something bad very shortly...
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 26 2016, 5:22pm
Post #8 of 29
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B. Cuddle time, what does it mean?
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B. Is the physical cradling of Frodo by Sam in their sleep better interpreted as a lovers’ embrace, or as a paternal cuddling of a child?
When I first discovered Lord of the Rings, I was not quite into my teens. I soon recommended the book to my friends. One of them - with this passage in mind I think- came along sniggering one day to announce that Frodo and Sam were a gay couple. The sniggering was to do with us being barely into our teens, at an age when anything to do with human affection or sexuality was sniggerable. I trust we'll do better here.
I can see that having Sam and Frodo as a potential or actual romantic couple is a possible reading - I don't see anything in the text which prohibits that interpretation, and it gives one possible motive for their unto-death loyalty. But I also don't see anything in the text which forces us to conclude that this is the kind of relationship Tolkien envisaged for them. So there's the usual problem if one wanted to move from 'my reading is' to 'what the author meant us to understand was...'.
I don't 'ship' them myself though - or at least not in a straightforward romantic manner.
There's little doubt that Sam's feelings towards Frodo are both intense and highly protective. I'm not sure how much of that is paternalistic, fraternalistic, homoerotic, or some other driver. Perhaps Sam himself would find it hard to say. Intense relationships can get confusing that way. Feelings aren't like a computer game- you can't (even if you might like to) delve into some 'relationship settings' tab to check how much paternalistic feeling you're experiencing and how much you actually fancy someone, or to tweak those settings to be more convenient. This is Sam, not a Sim.
What matters (hugely) to the plot is Sam's unswerving devotion - because that's the power that's going to get Frodo to Mt Doom, and hasn't yet given up on getting back again.
Another thing to bear in mind, I think is the various cultural standards for tactility. Whether it is OK to lounge against your friend or hug them varies a lot, I notice - culturally, and by age group as well as by the context of the relationship and the circumstances. Google 'soldiers resting' and you'll find lots of tangled exhausted sleeping bodies..
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Feb 26 2016, 5:26pm
Post #9 of 29
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So Sammo Hung should have played a hobbit? //
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 26 2016, 5:34pm
Post #10 of 29
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Since of the four Sam was the biggest big brother.
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 26 2016, 5:41pm
Post #11 of 29
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A nice touch -Gollum goes spidery.
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In response and reaction to Sam's accusation that he was "pawing at master"
Gollum withdrew himself, and a green light flickered under his heavy lids. Almost spiderlike he looked now, crouched back on his bent limbs, with his protruding eyes. The fleeting moment had passed, beyond recall.
I like Gollum 'withdrawing himself' - in more than a physical sense. And it's a nice touch that, along with the 'green light' in his eyes that says we've gone 'Very Gollum' there's a bit of spider to him too...
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 26 2016, 5:52pm)
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No One in Particular
Lorien
Feb 26 2016, 5:55pm
Post #13 of 29
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It would probably be very painful to see what you might have been, had you not failed at the test, so yeah, that might very well have reminded him of better days that could have been.
While you live, shine
Have no grief at all
Life exists only for a short while
And time demands an end.
Seikilos Epitaph
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enanito
Rohan
Feb 26 2016, 6:13pm
Post #14 of 29
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Gollum's hobbit and spider sides
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I really should know but can't remember. Is there any substance besides implied conjecture that Gollum's shares ancestry with the hobbits?
As NWM points out, in just a couple paragraphs we swing from the almost-redeemed Gollum being represented as if a weary old hobbit, to the rededicated evil Gollum appearing almost spider-like.
Definite foreshadowing of the upcoming confrontation between the pure goodness of Frodo and Sam, and the pure evil of Shelob.
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enanito
Rohan
Feb 26 2016, 6:25pm
Post #15 of 29
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One of my discussion points for next chapter is actually coming forward here, so I'll throw this in now. While traversing the tunnel and sensing the approaching malice, Frodo and Sam shrink from the walls and clasp hands together, continuing forward that way. No sword drawn, just relying on each other for strength to keep going.
My wife is from a South American country, and the first time I visited it I saw plenty of women and even older boys walking hand in hand. And believe me, the first time I got a kiss on my cheek from another guy my age, it definitely was a cultural awakening! It's played for laughs in movies (the frigid americans vs touchy-feely greeks of My Big Fat Greek Wedding amongst thousands of others), but it's real.
I sure can't speak to Tolkien's background or his intent, but these scenes flow well for me.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 26 2016, 6:29pm
Post #16 of 29
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Gandalf claims to have researched the matter
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‘Gollum!’ cried Frodo. ‘Gollum? Do you mean that this is the very Gollum-creature that Bilbo met? How loathsome!’
‘I think it is a sad story,’ said the wizard, ‘and it might have happened to others, even to some hobbits that I have known.’
‘I can't believe that Gollum was connected with hobbits, however distantly,’ said Frodo with some heat. ‘What an abominable notion!’
‘It is true all the same,’ replied Gandalf. ‘About their origins, at any rate, I know more than hobbits do themselves.
Book I Ch 2 Shadow of the Past
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 27 2016, 5:29pm
Post #17 of 29
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Isn't exactly what Frodo says, but by offering to release Smeagol from his oath to guide them, it's effectively what he means.
I've just noticed that this is the opposite to the movie (where Frodo tells Sam to go home at about this time, a moment I didn't think worked all that well).
It's unrealistic though, for all that it might be more convenient for Frodo - Gollum is OF COURSE going to follow the Ring!
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 27 2016, 5:48pm
Post #19 of 29
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Frodo and Sam discussing where they might get water
'I wonder when we'll find water again?' said Sam. 'But I suppose even over there they drink? Orcs drink, don't they?'
'Yes, they drink,' said Frodo. 'But do not let us speak of that. Such drink is not for us.'
So what do orcs drink, and what would Frodo know about it?
Or is it a lovely sentence to make us shudder at orcs (and that our hobbit heroes might have to be reduced to orc-like habits to survive) but not an enquiry we'e supposed to follow up?
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volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Feb 27 2016, 5:53pm)
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 27 2016, 6:25pm
Post #20 of 29
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Tolkien worked out the 'alternative time line' rather thoroughly in Letter 246, in 1963
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I think this letter is better known for the latter part of Tolkien's speculation, in which he works out what would have happened had Frodo not had the Ring bitten off him and destroyed. But that drama (the Nazgul show up! Sauron appears at the Sammath Naur!) actually follows on his earlier line of thought, which answers your question: What if Sam had not alienated Gollum at that most critical moment of repentance and love?
[According] to the 'logic of the story'[,] Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222) but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.
I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together – and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo. - JRRT, Letter 246 to Mrs. Eileen Elgar, Sept. 1963 (drafts)
I have never been really satisfied by this scenario. I think Tolkien was smoking something here - and I think he knew it too. My best explanation was that he was working out here his own theory of what repentance and love 'mean' when exemplified by a story with the premises of The Lord of the Rings. But that's theory. In fact, one has to believe that if Gollum finally stole the Ring from Frodo, even though he loved Frodo and wished him no harm, he would be paralyzed by fear and love of the Ring, and Sauron would have made short work of him (just as Tolkien projects for Frodo in a similar circumstance - owns the Ring, unharmed by companion, can't possibly contest the Dark Lord - in the following paragraphs).
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 27 2016, 7:01pm
Post #21 of 29
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An official answer! Thanks for finding that
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I think Tolkien was right - we'd have to focus on how long Gollum's repentance would last: not as good as the plot we do have, which can focus on Frodo and Sam.
I can also see the problem of this plot line leading explicitly to a sort of 'noble suicide' by Gollum (throwing himself and the Ring into the fire as the only way to save the world - including Frodo - from Sauron). I imagine that wouldn't be as satisfying as the end Tolkien wrote, in which its unclear how much of Gollum falling in is accident, how much is Frodo's curse (or even a push) and how much is Smeagol's own doing.
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volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 27 2016, 7:09pm
Post #22 of 29
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and also - hobbits as children?
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Hobbits have, I think, some of the (idealized) features of children. Apart from being child-sized, they have a childlike greediness for food, a love of fun and games, and an innocence about the outside world. Children are very tactile to each other - which is sometimes cute and sometimes involves parents endlessly seeming to have to break up fist-fights or getting out the head lice remedies.
So maybe Frodo in Sam's lap can be read as the very picture of cute childhood innocence?
 Now it strikes me that t is just as well that F & S have presumably long run out of pipe-weed, or daren't light up for fear of detection - I've just amused myself by imagining what critics would make of Gollum coming back & finding the pair of them smoking.....
Hope I haven't cut into the upcoming Shelb's Lair - but surely there is so much to discuss in that exciting chapter that there's plenty left 
~~~~~~
volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293
A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383
A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Feb 28 2016, 1:29pm
Post #23 of 29
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NoWiz’s quote:
‘Long after, but still very long ago, there lived by the banks of the Great River on the edge of Wilderland a clever-handed and quiet-footed little people. I guess they were of hobbit-kind; akin to the father of the fathers of the Stoors, for they loved the River, and often swam in it, or made little boats of reeds.’
I really should know but can't remember. Is there any substance besides implied conjecture that Gollum's shares ancestry with the hobbits?
I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of
gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches
blew.
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sador
Half-elven
Feb 29 2016, 10:17am
Post #25 of 29
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Sorry for not having time to participate properly.
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But just with regards to this letter - well, it never even half-satisfied me. Not just because of the cynicism I share with Darkstone about Gollum's redemption (which, alas, I have reached at an earlier age); but also because there was no way back now. What would Gollum have done? Gone ahead to tell Shelob he's sorry, the hobbits are not for eating?
The only feasible way would be to somehow tell the hobbits the way is blocked, making up some excuse or confssing his planned treachery (which I do not believe even a repentant Gollum would be able to do), and then back down the stairs and finding some other way (making up an excuse to how come he said before there is none).
If the hobbits did not fall off going downwards, they would run straight into Gorbag's arms.
So I must conclude that had Sam not prevented Gollum from repenting, even if he really did mean to and could carry it through - the interest in Gollum would not have gone very far, definitely not as far as Mordor. At most we would have seen an aging Gollum (who might have given the Orcs the slip) repining for his double betrayal - at first of his oath, and then of his new-found love.
But in this scenario, paradoxically, he would have fulfilled his Oath. Gollum swore to serve the Master of the Precious, and he knew well enough who that was - delivering the Ring into the hands of Gorbag's company would do it nicely indeed, as would be leaving Frodo's dead body to be picked up by Shagrat, which would be far more plausible than gaining the Ring himself.
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