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Lakernik: ISU will initiate change of rules
- Thread starter Snow63
- Start date
So, they consider new GOE and components system. I hope ice dance rules will be upgraded too. I want more mathematically grounded criterias, not something like 'seamless execution', 'stylish steps', 'bold edges' and 'very strong knee work'.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
First, thanks for the translation, Snow. 
I am not sure from the article exactly what Lakernik thinks is the problem, or how expanding the GOE score will address it. His view seems to be that Hanyu gets close to the maximum possible score because he gets +3 on most of hs elements. What I am getting from the article is that Lakernik feels that if the GOE scale is extended to the range -5 to +5, then Hanyu could get his +3's and still leave room for someone to score even higher.
Personally, I don't think the proposed change will make any difference (Hanyu will get +4s
). But I love the translation, "the short program and the arbitrary program."
I am not sure from the article exactly what Lakernik thinks is the problem, or how expanding the GOE score will address it. His view seems to be that Hanyu gets close to the maximum possible score because he gets +3 on most of hs elements. What I am getting from the article is that Lakernik feels that if the GOE scale is extended to the range -5 to +5, then Hanyu could get his +3's and still leave room for someone to score even higher.
Personally, I don't think the proposed change will make any difference (Hanyu will get +4s
). But I love the translation, "the short program and the arbitrary program." First, thanks for the translation, Snow.
I am not sure from the article exactly what Lakernik thinks is the problem, or how expanding the GOE score will address it. His view seems to be that Hanyu gets close to the maximum possible score because he gets +3 on most of hs elements. What I am getting from the article is that Lakernik feels that if the GOE scale is extended to the range -5 to +5, then Hanyu could get his +3's and still leave room for someone to score even higher.
Personally, I don't think the proposed change will make any difference (Hanyu will get +4s
It was Google-translation, obviously
He thinks, as I take it, that if they will expand GOE scale, than it will require skaters to execute more criterias/features. Something like that. I personally think they should take more complex approach, not just expand the scale. And PCS is a whole different story, it needs to be completely reworked.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
First, thanks for the translation, Snow.
I am not sure from the article exactly what Lakernik thinks is the problem, or how expanding the GOE score will address it. His view seems to be that Hanyu gets close to the maximum possible score because he gets +3 on most of hs elements. What I am getting from the article is that Lakernik feels that if the GOE scale is extended to the range -5 to +5, then Hanyu could get his +3's and still leave room for someone to score even higher.
Personally, I don't think the proposed change will make any difference (Hanyu will get +4s
I agree, one gets the impression from the last two competitions that the only reason they are giving Yuzu +3s on his jumps is because they can't give him +4 or +5. If the option is there, and Yuzu does his spread eagle 4S or a counter 3A, they'll give him the maximum score. What else can you do to a jump more than what Yuzu does? Oooh wait, you can do a SE- Tano 3A -SE for the maximum +5?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That is so tricky. Those criteria (seamless execution, etc.) are exactly what make one dance performance good and another bad. It seems like it is impossible to "mathematicize" the aspects of ice dance that in fact are most important. At the end of the day, a judged sport is a judged sport and, for good or ill, must rely on the judgement of the judges.
Just today Mishin said that Dmitriev practice Rippon 3A. He also works on 4A. But knowing Mishin, it could be not exactly the truth
Then what's the difference between 'flowing execution' and 'seamless execution' of twizzles? Or 'flowing and fast' and 'flowing and very fast'? These criterias are way too subjective.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
Just today Mishin said that Dmitriev practice Rippon 3A. He also works on 4A. But knowing Mishin, it could be not exactly the truth
I'd love to see it. That would be something super in a program.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
How would expanding the GOE scale help? Then Yuzuru would get +4's and +5's and that's it.
If at all, they should work on getting the PCS equal to the TES again, but it's again something too early to cry about in my book. Let's at least wait for worlds and see how that goes.
Thank you very much for posting Snow!
Then Yuzuru would get +4's and +5's and that's it.If at all, they should work on getting the PCS equal to the TES again, but it's again something too early to cry about in my book. Let's at least wait for worlds and see how that goes.
Thank you very much for posting Snow!
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Well, that's where judging comes in.
It's like at the pie-baking contest at the county fair. The judges must decide that Mrs. Jones' apple pie is tasty, but Mrs. Smith's cherry pie is very tasty. (I guess that's why pie baking is not in the Olympics.
)Well, that's where judging comes in.
It's like at the pie-baking contest at the county fair. The judges must decide that Mrs. Jones' apple pie is tasty, but Mrs. Smith's cherry pie is very tasty. (I guess that's why pie baking is not in the Olympics.
But pie baking is not in the Olympics. Ice dance, however, is. So...
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Just today Mishin said that Dmitriev practice Rippon 3A. He also works on 4A. But knowing Mishin, it could be not exactly the truth
https://www.instagram.com/p/_KJVodv7h6/?taken-by=arizakarian
https://www.instagram.com/p/8fzPtQv7pB/?taken-by=arizakarian
This! And I do not think it is too early. I think it is already late.
I'm glad to hear that they recognize there is a problem though. I'm not opposed to GOE expansion. In some cases, I think we need it when comparing larger fields/ranges of athletes. But I think it needs to come with more clear guidelines for what must receive negative GOE. No pluses for botched landings, wobbly twizzles, etc. If there is a larger scale on the negative side, then we should be able to put high, turned out jumps effectively above low turned out jumps while still fitting them all on the negative scale.
All the same, I think the falling behind of the PCS mark is by far the more serious problem. I'd like to see both marks weighted at 50%.
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2014
I don't think that expanding the GOE is intended to limit Yuzu's score. Since Yuzu is hitting the (almost) perfect mark for nearly all of his elements, they need to have more detailed rules that can differentiate skaters. Yuzu is the only one who can score such marks currently, but administration-wise, once someone hit such score, they have to think about the case in which multiple skaters start to hit those marks.
Ice Dance, they actually removed that from the rule this year, didn't they? I was actually wondering why they would remove the rule regarding the obligatory negative GOE... could anyone explain ISU's intention behind that?
Ice Dance, they actually removed that from the rule this year, didn't they? I was actually wondering why they would remove the rule regarding the obligatory negative GOE... could anyone explain ISU's intention behind that?
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This is SO freaking awesome! Thanks.
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2014
Huh? How would raising GOE's lower or limit Yuzuru's scores...? Unless they plan on lowering the SOV as well, otherwise they're just raising his scoring potential. And please correct me if I'm wrong since I wasn't around that time but didn't they lower the GOE's after Vancouver because of how much impacted the scores? So....
If they're looking to go in the direction of : Less focus on # of elements and more on quality, then they should raise GOE's and lower BV's across the board. But this still wouldn't impact Yuzuru much since he has both quality and quantity. Maybe they just got scared looking at his last 2 competition's scoring potential and came up with a quick attempt to solve whatever problem they think they have. Hope by the time 2018 rolls around, their suggested changes will make more sense after having some time to think things through lol.
How would raising GOE's lower or limit Yuzuru's scores...? Unless they plan on lowering the SOV as well, otherwise they're just raising his scoring potential. And please correct me if I'm wrong since I wasn't around that time but didn't they lower the GOE's after Vancouver because of how much impacted the scores? So.... If they're looking to go in the direction of : Less focus on # of elements and more on quality, then they should raise GOE's and lower BV's across the board. But this still wouldn't impact Yuzuru much since he has both quality and quantity. Maybe they just got scared looking at his last 2 competition's scoring potential and came up with a quick attempt to solve whatever problem they think they have. Hope by the time 2018 rolls around, their suggested changes will make more sense after having some time to think things through lol.
