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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 14 2016, 6:41am
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**The Choices of Master Samwise** 4. Open Discussion ("What never? Hardly ever.")
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D "Very well, Bart. I shall send you to Heaven before I send you to Hell." Thanks for your patience with my slow posting and your indulgence as I led this week's discussion on some odd tangents. There's a lot to this chapter that I didn't discuss (pretty much most of it), so if you'd like to address anything else, this is your chance to do so. Here's a few things you could muse on, in addition to raising your own concerns: --It belatedly occurs to me that the downdraft that squire mentioned in the "Stairs of Cirith Ungol" discussion is the same easterly wind that has been pushing the volcanic darkness from Mordor into the westlands. Do you agree? --Is Shelob's "sting" delivered via a stinger or via fangs? --If you were making a radio play of the conversation Sam overhears between Gorbag and Shagrat, what actors would you cast in the parts? --Where have Shagrat and/or Gorbag encountered cats, kittens, boned fish, and frogs before? --As Sam first pursues the orcs, the narrator tells us:
In what far-off time the main tunnel and the great round pit had been made, where Shelob had taken up her abode in ages past, they did not know but many byways they had themselves delved about it on either side, so as to escape the lair in their goings to and fro on the business of their masters. What is this "pit" here mentioned? I don't remember that from the previous chapter. --This chapter is not the only time that the word "babel" is used in LOTR. Without resorting to an electronic search, where is the other? --On the other hand, there is another word appearing only here, that I was surprised to find in LOTR at all, even in this chapter where it is most appropriate. Do you think Gorbag is ever sick at sea? And why am I asking? --Does any reader actually believe that Frodo has died? --Do lots of people in Middle-earth end up buried alive, believed to be dead for want of "leeches"? I shall keep an eye on this discussion and continue to respond to your replies even as I put serious effort into answering questions about our next chapter, "Minas Tirith". Take it away, CuriousG! (And a one, and a two . . .)
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(This post was edited by N.E. Brigand on Mar 14 2016, 6:42am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 14 2016, 9:40am
Post #2 of 20
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--Does any reader actually believe that Frodo has died? I did!
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On my first reading, I thought Frodo had died, and I agonised with Sam over the necessity of going on alone. Then, when it was revealed that Frodo was still alive, my relief about that was tempered by my anxiety that Sam's attempt at rescue was bound to get him captured too, along with the Ring. I suppose this was the effect Tolkien wanted? I think that question - of whether Sam ought really to push on to Mount Doom anyway hangs over us at the end of the book. The grim calculation would be whether he could destroy the Ring before Frodo is tortured into revealing everything (whereupon I suppose Sauron would put Mordor into Lockdown and Sam's mission would become impossible). I don't think Sam would be capable of taking that decision, but I was let uncertain that he had made the right choice.
~~~~~~ volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293 A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383 A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Mar 14 2016, 1:39pm
Post #4 of 20
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An alternative way to look at the question of "Did any reader think Frodo had actually died" is to ask whether the story still could have "worked" if Frodo died and Sam completed the Quest. I can imagine a couple of quite valid scenarios where Frodo's part ends at Cirith Ungol, and Sam, an even-more-unlikely hero, is forced to make the journey to Mount Doom alone. That said, of course I bow to Tolkien's literary might and confess the story would not (and could not) work as intended if Frodo dies here. Frodo's journey There-And-Back-Again, as it were, and his inability to overcome the Mogul wound and subsequent sailing into the West, are key elements in the lore. So back to N.E.B's question -- yes, I too like NoWizMe, imagined that Frodo might well have died. Of course I was hoping not, and relieved (after having to wait until Book VI to find out for 100% sure!) once I saw he was still alive. But going through the book the first time, I wasn't sure if Tolkien was going to take the story in an unexpected direction with a solitary hero completing the Quest.
(This post was edited by enanito on Mar 14 2016, 1:49pm)
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enanito
Rohan
Mar 14 2016, 1:48pm
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A meme before it's time, when I read LOTR I was dimly aware of the "Frodo Lives!" mantra, although too young to understand any underlying meanings. I wonder if other first-time readers of that pre-Internet era ever wondered if "Frodo Lives!" meant he survived, or if it was intended as an exclamation that although he dies in the book he was still alive in their minds? I do remember thinking though, that whoever this Frodo guy was, man did he make an impression if people were scrawling it on walls and wearing it on t-shirts :)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 14 2016, 2:24pm
Post #6 of 20
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Is Shelob's "sting" delivered via a stinger or via fangs? First, please excuse me for only addressing this one point. Now, Shelob was not a natural creature but of a demonic nature and she wasn't bound by the normal anatomy of spiders. And Tolkien did write of her sting and of her having stung Frodo. However, he also described venom dribbling from her beak. So I would guess that she delivered her poison through a bite, not a stinger.
"Things need not to have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." - Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 14 2016, 2:27pm)
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enanito
Rohan
Mar 14 2016, 2:43pm
Post #7 of 20
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OK, back to one of my discussion points from last chapter: What insight do we gain in this chapter regarding Galadriel's phial? While Sam is regarding his own death reflected in Shelob's eyes, he hears something akin to a remote voice. Sam then fumbles and finds the phial, and can barely say the word "Galadriel". At that point he remembers the Elves from the Shire, the Elves from Rivendell, and is overcome with an outside voice that speaks a powerful Elvish exclamation. However, all this seems to simply counteract Shelob's malice, the phial remains unaffected. It is when "Samwise the Hobbit, Hamfast's son" takes ownership of the situation, that the phial blazes to life: "As if his indomitable spirit had set its potency in motion, the glass blazed suddenly like a white torch in his hand". So how much of phial's power comes from Galadriel, and how much of its power comes from it being the light of the Silmaril? And is this different in a way from the Ring, whose power seems to come wholly from Sauron and not from anything "greater" -- whereas I'm not sure how much of the phial's power comes really from Galadriel?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Mar 14 2016, 3:52pm
Post #8 of 20
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So how much of phial's power comes from Galadriel, and how much of its power comes from it being the light of the Silmaril? The latter, I assume. Galadriel's contribution is capturing the light of Eärendil, not adding her own power to it. At least that is my interpretation.
"Things need not to have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." - Dream of the Endless
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Mar 14 2016, 3:53pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Mar 14 2016, 3:57pm
Post #9 of 20
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Phials, Phlashlights and Phaith
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The phial certainly doesn't seem to work as simple technology, like a flashlight. It doesn't seem as if you do the correct process of turning it on and it is on. Rather, it seems to take something from the user - their belief in it or what it represents, perhaps? A little bit of faith - if that it the right word - seems to stir theglass up and start a virtuous cycle. Additionally, Sam recites or invokes the name of Elbereth - is this a prayer or something sufficiently like it that it might be answered?
~~~~~~ volunteers are still needed to lead chapters for our upcoming ROTK read-through http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=893293#893293 A set of links to our Book III discussions can be found here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=886383#886383 A wonderful list of links to previous read-throughs is curated by our very own 'squire' here http://users.bestweb.net/...-SixthDiscussion.htm
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enanito
Rohan
Mar 14 2016, 5:41pm
Post #10 of 20
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I doubt Sam's a "believer in the Elvish Gods", in that sense, since once the voice-not-his-own is gone, he doesn't seem to continue appealing to any higher power for help. He's just Sam, but full of an indomitable spirit for goodness. "We're going on; but we'll settle with you first" Sam says, and the we he is referring to would be him and Frodo, not him and Varda Queen of the Stars. Of course, just because Sam's faith is simplistic doesn't mean he won't receive the full blessing of Varda's power, which flares to life because of Sam's determination. So I'd say Sam believes in what the Light represents, even if he doesn't necessarily understand the how or the why. This is interesting because in my mind I had always attributed a large portion of the phial's power to Galadriel herself, but as Otaku stated I now believe her contribution was capturing the Light (and perhaps she was the only Elf left in M.E. who had that skill, so I'm not downplaying that in the least!).
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 14 2016, 9:59pm
Post #11 of 20
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I thought Frodo died on 1st read too
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And I dang near stopped reading the book as a result. I struggled on with Sam's wretched feeling that he was darned if he did, darned if he didn't. Even as a kid I could appreciate that, because you don't have to wait for adulthood to feel crushed by your choices that seem equally dismal. I ultimately thought Sam was being overly sentimental in going back to Frodo, that his first duty was to destroy the Ring, and sticking around by a corpse wasn't going to help anyone, though I was ambivalent too, because it displayed a great friendship between them. Then fate or providence got involved and Frodo was really alive, and I figured it would all work out somehow.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Mar 14 2016, 10:29pm
Post #12 of 20
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If we jump ahead to the Crack of Doom, the Phial won't work there because Sauron's power overwhelms all other powers. I don't think he could outdo Varda, or even a Silmaril, but he could overpower Galadriel on his own turf. Hence, I think her power was part of what brought the Phial to life. The details of the magic behind the Phial are never laid, so we can never be sure if x% is Varda's power, y% is Earendil's, etc. It seems to me, though, that the Phial is a legacy of powers stretching from Galadriel in Lorien to Earendil + his Silmaril back to the original Two Trees. Tolkien seemed to like legacies, such as Sting, Glamdring, and Orcrist coming from Gondolin; the long history of the Dunedain; and the White Tree of Gondor which could trace its ancestry all the way back to Valinor (and again, the Two Trees).
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Mar 16 2016, 2:09am
Post #13 of 20
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I guess I half-believed Frodo was dead. I wish I could chalk that up to my own cleverness, but in all honesty I'm sure it was just that a part of me simply wouldn't accept Frodo's death - despite the clear proof. So, in essence, I was still in denial at the time when it was revealed that Frodo was actually still alive. (at which point I probably thought to myself: "I knew it!") I still marvel that Sam has the strength to try to carry out the quest after Frodo's apparent death. Even I underestimate Hobbit toughness in this instance. I fully expect Sam to be devastated and defeated by the loss of his master. He amazes me when he absorbs this loss and keeps right on walking towards Mount Doom.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Mar 16 2016, 2:24am
Post #14 of 20
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Yes, the Phial seems to be a torch passed on through history. I find it very mysterious, and I'm not sure that I could pinpoint its power exactly. Yet, some specific qualities do come through to me. I would say it is like the light of Defiance (of Evil and Despair). I think one of its greatest powers is the strengthening of the fighting spirit. It seems to remind the holder that they are not alone in the long fight against the Shadow.
"Good Morning!"
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Mar 16 2016, 4:22am
Post #15 of 20
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I'd pick Ian McShane to voice my Shagrat. Authoritative, intimidating. Someone shiftier for Gorbag. Hmm? Not sure. But I loved hearing the exchange between the two when I first read the book. It seemed to add a whole new dimension to the story for me. And the ending of the chapter (and book) is also one of my favorite parts of the story. But so frustratingly suspenseful - as if Tolkien himself had slammed the door on what was quickly becoming the most intriguing corner of Middle-earth for me.
"Good Morning!"
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 29 2016, 6:01pm
Post #16 of 20
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On the other hand, there is another word appearing only here, that I was surprised to find in LOTR at all, even in this chapter where it is most appropriate. Do you think Gorbag is ever sick at sea? And why am I asking? Those of you who knew the answer to this one chose not to spoil the fun. But for anyone not clued in by the references to my all-time favorite Simpson's episode, this is the reason I asked: "You may well put you're thinking cap on, if you've got one. It's no laughing matter. No one, no one has ever stuck a pin in Shelob before, as you should know well enough. There's no grief in that; but think--there's someone loose hereabouts as is more dangerous than any other damned rebel that ever walked since the bad old times, since the Great Siege."
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squire
Half-elven
Mar 29 2016, 6:55pm
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Nice little puzzle - why this word 'damned' in this speech in this chapter when, as you say, it appears nowhere else in Tolkien's writing (outside of his letters, of course). It does fit the orcs' style of speech, even cleaned up as Tolkien claimed it was, compared to the models he'd heard while in the Army. But as with Sam's "Lor bless you" in chapter 2 of Book I, we can treat the word as a curiosity, or we can ask, who is doing the damning here? Is it the same entity as does the "blessing" and "cursing" that are much more commonly spoken of, by both good and evil characters in the rest of the story? Or, it occurs to me, does the word reflect the same outlook whereby these orcs call Elves "rebels"? Do orcs think of the Children of Iluvatar as "damned" in the eyes of Sauron - or Morgoth?
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 29 2016, 8:22pm
Post #18 of 20
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But if patriotic sentiment is wanted, I've patriotic ballads cut and dried; For where'er our country's banner may be planted, All other local banners are defied! Our warriors, in serried ranks assembled, Never quail, advancing in great disorder, And I shouldn't be surprised if nations trembled Before the mighty troops of Mordor! -Translations From the Orkish --It belatedly occurs to me that the downdraft that squire mentioned in the "Stairs of Cirith Ungol" discussion is the same easterly wind that has been pushing the volcanic darkness from Mordor into the westlands. Do you agree? Sure. --Is Shelob's "sting" delivered via a stinger or via fangs? A stinger, as opposed to a bite from a fang. --If you were making a radio play of the conversation Sam overhears between Gorbag and Shagrat, what actors would you cast in the parts? Obviously Wallace Beery and Eugene Pallette. But maybe Charles Boyer and Maurice Chevalier for a more Continental flair. And Groucho and Chico Marx would be funny. But Clifton Webb and Claude Rains would be absolutely hilarious. --Where have Shagrat and/or Gorbag encountered cats, kittens, boned fish, and frogs before? The Barad-Diner blue plate specials for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, respectively. --As Sam first pursues the orcs, the narrator tells us: ________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________ In what far-off time the main tunnel and the great round pit had been made, where Shelob had taken up her abode in ages past, they did not know but many byways they had themselves delved about it on either side, so as to escape the lair in their goings to and fro on the business of their masters. ________________________________________ What is this "pit" here mentioned? One of the Zasu Pitts. I don't remember that from the previous chapter. See squire’s previous discussion. Scroll down to question L: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=768560#768560 --This chapter is not the only time that the word "babel" is used in LOTR. Without resorting to an electronic search, where is the other? The Prancing Pony. --On the other hand, there is another word appearing only here, that I was surprised to find in LOTR at all, even in this chapter where it is most appropriate. Rebels by definition are “damned”, or from the Latin, “guilty”. Do you think Gorbag is ever sick at sea? Only if he has a frog in his throat from the Barad-Diner Thursday special. Those things do tend to back up on you. And why am I asking? To pad out the questions. --Does any reader actually believe that Frodo has died? At this point in my first reading I still didn’t believe Boromir had died. --Do lots of people in Middle-earth end up buried alive, believed to be dead for want of "leeches"? That’s why you have three day wakes. When the odor from the body begins to overwhelm the aroma from the flowers, time to put them in the ground.
****************************************** “Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!" "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may." "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" "But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!” "Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!" "No way!" "Way!" "Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!" "Cool!!" -Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Mar 29 2016, 10:32pm
Post #19 of 20
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"Last of Eliza, first of Susie". //
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-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room! +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Mar 30 2016, 3:28am
Post #20 of 20
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Definitely more memorable than "Elsie".
****************************************** “Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!" "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye." "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may." "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!" "But no living man am I! I am Eowyn, daughter of Theodwyn!” "Er, really? My mother's name was Theodwyn, too!" "No way!" "Way!" "Wow! Let's stop fighting and be best friends!" "Cool!!" -Zack Snyder's The Return of the King
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