This and That: GPF Recap

TSLDave · Dec 14, 2015

http://youtu.be/koKT0eq6D1Y

Should Linda travel with Frank?

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

How did you rank the dance event?

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

Franklin99 · Dec 14, 2015

TSLDave said:
Should Linda travel with Frank?

Will this help Gracie?

TSLDave said:
Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

Rafa, by default

TSLDave said:
What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?

Get on it Rafael.

TSLDave said:
How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

Based on their best performance this season:
Mens
Yuzuru - Patrick has better skating skills & performance (based on his carriage) , but Yuzuru edges him out on transitions, choreography, & interpretations.
Patrick - see above
Shoma - He is definitely filling the void that Daisuke T. left behind when he retired.
Javi - I love his SP, but his LP feels more of the same.
Murukami - he needs to open up more with his performance
Boyang - He has his jumps, and his SP is very promising. But his LP.....

Women

Mao - her illness might have deteriorated her jumps in her last 2 competitions, but her components are still #1 amongst these girls/ladies.
Gracie - she definitely has the whole package, but Gracie is still too focus on her jumps to really bring it all together. Fingers crossed for Nationals/World
Ashley - Diva Wagner has the maturity that the youngsters have yet to fully developed. But girl, your lack of transitions and spins are :disapp: please work on them before World
Evegenia -The most promising of the Russian batch in terms of components. (maybe behind Adelina).
Satoko - Jumps aside, she is definitely a strong performer overall.
Radionova - She's always had a hunched shoulders, but her growth spurt made it more prominent. And that has effecting her overall performance, in terms of carriage. Her coach/choreographers should get her in ballet to fix her posture, before it gets worse.

TSLDave said:
How did you rank the dance event?

Didn't watch

TSLDave said:
Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

Nope. But I love their SP.

This will be edited a few more times as I watch the performances again.

AprilS · Dec 14, 2015

Yaaaayyy :hap93:
Thanks Dave and Jenny :agree:

andromache · Dec 14, 2015

Should Linda travel with Frank?

I'm all about this idea if it has even the slightest chance of easing Gracie's nerves. I agree she probably needs someone to talk her into relaxing before she skates.

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

Rafael. Yeah, he's not American, but as far as "top coach of American skaters" goes, Rafael. At least I hope so, unless Tom Z.'s skaters suddenly become known for their skating skills and transitions.

What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?

Rafael should be making her do this! Or a talking-to from Adam.

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

This is too much work and effort to do right now.

Yeah, some of the skaters were definitely given generous PCS, but they got the "skating clean" bonuses (or in Shoma's case, the "skating while a new senior" deduction, which only applies to men but not ladies, oddly enough.) The biggest thing Evgenia needs to do is improve her SS--everything else is actually really lovely. I agree with Jenny that I'm dying to see some gorgeous held positions from the Russian ladies, as well. That's how you MAKE a program!

How did you rank the dance event?

1. W/P
2. Shibs
3. C/B
4. C/L
5. B/S
6. H/D

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

It's impressive for a pairs team, but not totally clean or +GOE. I also believe Ksenia had a step out on the SBS jumps in the SP (or was it on the throw? Can't recall) and received +GOE. Well-deserved winners anyway.

I hope there is more restraint in scoring at other events this season, though in this case I don't think any scoring messed up final results. But make the skaters WORK for those points!

Dave, what do you think of the pre-rotation (and sometimes UR on the landing also) on Satoko's jumps and do you think she deserves the full points and +GOE she receives on them?

StitchMonkey · Dec 14, 2015

1. I am not sure someone in an "official" capacity would be best for Gracie... it may just feel it is someone else she has to try to not disappoint. She has spoken well of Carly before, maybe she could go with her to some events. I think there is merit to you idea, but i think for it to work it needs to be someone who does not answer to Frank.

2. Tom Z and Kori actually have some potential. Just as rivals in skating can push skaters to do better, knowing the other is just down the road could help push them to be better coaches as well. They both seem to be big picture coaches which I see as a plus as well.

3. Seeing this thread/episode might do the trick... at least at open practices.

I am not really sure I am qualified to answer the rest... i am mostly here to learn about the rest.

StitchMonkey · Dec 14, 2015

andromache said:
Dave, what do you think of the pre-rotation (and sometimes UR on the landing also) on Satoko's jumps and do you think she deserves the full points and +GOE she receives on them?

I would so love to hear Dave and Jenny's take on this. It is really something i scratch my head on and I would like to see more discussion on it and how it should be handled.

skylark · Dec 15, 2015

TSLDave said:
TSLDave said:

http://youtu.be/koKT0eq6D1Y

Click to expand...

Should Linda travel with Frank?

It sounds intriguing. Or - Lori Nichol has often been with Frank and his skaters. Lori seems like a very nurturing, calming and happy presence. Frank's usual rinkside mantra: just like at home, do your job, may not inspire Gracie or work for her.

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

Rafael and Kori, in different ways.

What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?

Rafael, or maybe Adam. I think it would benefit Ashley to hear what Jenny and Dave said, that including the spins in practice would be an almost subliminal boost to her confidence (and real boost to her stamina). Ashley's strength is her authenticity of feeling, so she needs to feel she isn't lying to herself. I don't get why she doesn't do them in the practices, but at SA I've noticed many skaters not doing full run-throughs either.

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

Interpretation, performance and choreography in that order: Ashley is superb. SS and Transitions go up when she has her jumps.
Skating skills - Gracie and Mao, when they're "on." But Mao often has as many UR's and edge call as Ashley. Evgenia SS seem stellar; she's brilliant but way overscored in GPF.
Elena - hunched shoulders spoil the performance lines, as do flailing arms. But I love her anyway. Maybe it's because her joy and love of skating come through so strongly.
Satoko - I see objectively that her interpretation is good, in a delicate way that I appreciate. But I don't feel any emotion from her. Her jumps bother me a lot.
Evgania - Includes the right moves as if they're each being checked off. Hold them out more, let me enjoy the beauty for a few seconds. It's how things are done, not just that they're done.

How did you rank the dance event?

Chock/Bates have it for me, because of their music, drama, speed, and emotional expression. Madison did stumble on the twizzles but recovered well; and the other teams had stumbles as well, so .... Shibutanis have the most brilliant twizzles, they're electrifying. C/L I don't care for; too one note. W/P are fine, what I like about their programs this year is that Kaitlyn seems to shine more. The first 2 FD's: H/D, B/S - unfortunately were so smooth I was almost sleeping, and S/S didn't wake me up either, so I'll have to re-watch. But Maia as a Doll doesn't work for me.

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

No. I love their skating, their movement as a pair, their forcefulness and I get an impression of fearlessness. But I have a feeling they're also good at disguising things that they don't have the ideal technique on. They're bold at covering up. Are they also lying to themselves? I don't think so; they brazen it out. Also, I dislike some of her air positions in the lifts; some leg positions look awkward, and I hate that: pairs should always look elegant and make beautiful shapes IMO.

Tastetherainbow · Dec 15, 2015

Should Linda travel with Frank?

Gracie really needs some comforting from someone; Frank can just take care of the jumps.

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

I'm going to assume Rafael.

What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?

Most likely Rafael is the only one that can make her practice her spins.

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

Too much work... but I'll say that I thought that SB's were being given out like candy was a little bit too much... don't get me wrong, many performed their best, but still... BUT since this was a great competition I'll let that slide :hap93:

And also I don't think Boyang deserves 6's for PCS, but that FS makes me think so every single time. I know you can't change your program now, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get better programs and work on your skating skills and work on facial expressions so we can appreciate you and your awesome jumps more.

How did you rank the dance event?

1. Shibs (just for skating through food poisoning)
2. W/L
3. C/L
4. C/B
5. B/S
6. H/D

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

Ksenia is suchhhhhh a great jumper. That being said, it's definitely not clean. Not clean as in it's not 100% fully rotated. By how much Ksenia URs the second 3T will depend on the day, but the risk of getting a < is great even if something is slightly off. If it is not called a UR then I would say GOE should be a mix of +1 and +2 just for maintaining the flow throughout. My other favorite, S/H, comes almost to a standstill on their combo and are iffy on their 3S, so hopefully they can emulate a bit more of Ksenia... gosh Ksenia is such a special person :laugh:

anyanka · Dec 15, 2015

Should Linda travel with Frank?
If it will help Gracie, Dai and Denis, then yes. She has the mental toughness to help them steel their nerves. I was too young and only saw it in the recaps, but it always made me sad to see her so disappointed on the Olympic podium with the silver.

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?
I would say Rafa, or perhaps everyone will want to move to the other sunny part of the country and go with Richard Callaghan. He's gone quiet though, am I missing something? Why doesn't he have a stable of stars like Orser or Carroll?

What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?
Send her to Moskvina for a week and have Tamara STICK AROUND her while she skates and put the fear of God into her.

How did you rank the dance event?
I would have put the Italians over C/B, but by just a hair and mostly due to Mads missing the twizzle in the FD. Otherwise C/B would rank over C/L in my book, anytime. Too bad about the Shibs, but they were noticeably slower and more cautious than they were at NHK and SC. Can't blame them because Alex has been ill.

senatormls · Dec 15, 2015

Good questions to a great recap. If Linda hasn't travelled with Frank by now, she probably won't. I think Americans should go to Canada after Frank retires! LOL .. you gotta hand it to Brian Orser! Maybe Javi in a toreador outfit and a whip could make Ashley practice her spins! For the components, for both men and ladies .. the Japanese all the way! Patrick Chan is probabaly taking a bitter Sasha Cohen mixed with a sprinkle of Sotnikova pill now. I haven't seen so much of dance this season and I'm not a big fan of the short dance theme this year. Dance gets less and less analysis time on TSL these days maybe because the other 3 disciplines are kicking butt this year! S/K's combo didn't look crisp this time but I'm glad they have worked out last year's issues. She really sells this team even if she has ***** face. My hat is off to Hanyu.. that was lights out performances! Again American skaters .. go to Brian!!

senatormls · Dec 15, 2015

Sorry Doris, I didn't know the 'B' word would be edited!

apgold · Dec 15, 2015

Should Linda travel with Frank?

If not Linda, I liked the suggestion of Lori. I assume that Lori will be at Nationals and sit w/Gracie and Frank. Does Gracie have a sports psychologist?

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

I think Raf. He's got the current US Ladies Champ (Ashley), current US Men's Silver Medalist (Adam) and the Jr. Men's GPF Gold Medalist (Nathan) under his tutelage. Remains to be seen what he can do with Hannah Miller.

Kori and Tom Z are also strong contenders - I think it depends on how Max, Mirai, Jason, Mariah, etc. do at Nationals in Jan.

What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?

Only Raf can do that. Why he isn't making her do it, I'm not sure. Your points about endurance were insightful to me, as a non-skater.

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

Too much work to do there, lol. I think Mao and Ashley are still the best in PCS for ladies and Patrick and Yuzu for Men's.

How did you rank the dance event?

W/P, S/S, C/B, C/L, B/S, H/D

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

No but nobody seems to care, lol. I am kind of glad they won finally since Jillian and Bob were subpar in their SP. Maybe Ksenia will be happier that she's got a win. Not that a woman has to smile - it's kind of sexist to say that women should smile and look pretty all the time. I like how fierce she is.

caitie · Dec 15, 2015

I'm curious about Satoko's jumps as well, particularly her 3-3. If you only count what's happening in the air, it sure looks like a 3-2. Is that... okay?

Re: Ashley's spins, I've heard her say that layback spins hurt her back and she never wants to do another one. Is there some way she could create a "practice spin" that recreates the cardio expenditure of the spin without forcing her to contort herself every time she does a run-through? Sorry if this is stupid, I can't skate!

StitchMonkey · Dec 15, 2015

caitie said:
I'm curious about Satoko's jumps as well, particularly her 3-3. If you only count what's happening in the air, it sure looks like a 3-2. Is that... okay?

Re: Ashley's spins, I've heard her say that layback spins hurt her back and she never wants to do another one. Is there some way she could create a "practice spin" that recreates the cardio expenditure of the spin without forcing her to contort herself every time she does a run-through? Sorry if this is stupid, I can't skate!

I don't think it is a layback that she is skipping... i actually had the same thought it could be a paint/save the back issue, but i looked like the spin/spins in question are not looking to be back painful.

kwanette · Dec 15, 2015

apgold said:
Should Linda travel with Frank?

If not Linda, I liked the suggestion of Lori. I assume that Lori will be at Nationals and sit w/Gracie and Frank. Does Gracie have a sports psychologist?

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

I think Raf. He's got the current US Ladies Champ (Ashley), current US Men's Silver Medalist (Adam) and the Jr. Men's GPF Gold Medalist (Nathan) under his tutelage. Remains to be seen what he can do with Hannah Miller.

Kori and Tom Z are also strong contenders - I think it depends on how Max, Mirai, Jason, Mariah, etc. do at Nationals in Jan.

What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?

Only Raf can do that. Why he isn't making her do it, I'm not sure. Your points about endurance were insightful to me, as a non-skater.

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

Too much work to do there, lol. I think Mao and Ashley are still the best in PCS for ladies and Patrick and Yuzu for Men's.

How did you rank the dance event?

W/P, S/S, C/B, C/L, B/S, H/D

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

No but nobody seems to care, lol. I am kind of glad they won finally since Jillian and Bob were subpar in their SP. Maybe Ksenia will be happier that she's got a win. Not that a woman has to smile - it's kind of sexist to say that women should smile and look pretty all the time. I like how fierce she is.

I assume they all do by now..

Interspectator · Dec 15, 2015

I enjoyed this Recap, thanks! I'll get around to the questions when I have time to think about it.

flutzy13 · Dec 15, 2015

Should Linda travel with Frank?

After GPF, I have no idea who or what, if anything, can help Gracie calm her nerves. But Frank loves Linda, so sure, why not?

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

No clear frontrunner. The dearth of top tier coaches became clear when John Nicks retired but will become even more apparent once Frank retires. While I'm convinced Kori is the one for Jason, I'm not sold her on her as an elite coach yet. But what she's trying to do is interesting. Raf seems smart. Tom won't break into the upper upper echelon until he makes a concerted effort to get his skaters help with components

What will it take for Ashley to practice her spins in the program?

I don't know, maybe this episode? I did think the spins looked better here so that's at least something.

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

Too hard. But I will say Radionova was gifted majorly despite glaring weaknesses in her basic skating and I simply do not get Satoko. Yes, she stands up and she has some pretty positions but she skates small and she jumps small and its so boring. She's earned the benefit of the doubt in a way no one else but Medvedeva has this season though, churning out one good skate after another (maybe no as much at SA but lately) so I get why her PCS is rising.

How did you rank the dance event?
Shibs, C/B (on the strength of what is IMO a far better SD and the fact that Poje had a twizzle error as well that was just better hidden by the cameras. I don't even care about 4-6.

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?[
No, and oh how I wish Jillian could do a two minute segment explaining why/

Also, Dave, what you didn't address that I'd love to know your thoughts on is where does this result leave the Ashley Gracie matchup going into Nationals? I'm guessing they're about even given that neither had a great outing but at the same time, it's a win for Ashley because I think had Gracie medaled or been ahead here, Gracie would have been the overwhelming favorite with perhaps a cushion for a mistake or two and Ashley would have been heading to Worlds as American 2. I think this opened it up kind of a lot.

Dark_Ace88 · Dec 15, 2015

Who will be the next top American coach when Frank retires?

Raf

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

Men:
SS 1.Patrick/Yuzu 2. Shoma 3.Javi 4. Murakami 5.Jin
Transitions 1. Yuzu 2. Javi 3.Patrick 4. Shoma 5.Murakami 6.Jin
Choreo 1. Yuzu 2. Shoma 3. Javi 4. Patrick 5. Murakami 6. Jin
Interpretation 1. Yuzuru 2. Javi 3. Shoma 4. Murakami 5. Patrick 6. Jin
PE 1. Yuzu/Jaiv 2. Shoma 3. Murakami 4. Patrick 5. Jin

Ladies:

SS 1. Mao 2. Satoko 3. Wagner 4. Gold 5. Elena/Evgenia
Transitions 1. Satoko 2. Mao 3. Evgenia 4. Wagner 5. Gold 6. Elena
Choreo 1. Mao 2. Wagner 3. Satoko 4. Evgenia 5. Gold 6. Elena
Interpretation 1. Mao 2. Satoko/Wagner 3. Evgenia/Elena 4. Gold
PE 1. Wagner 2. Mao 3. Elena 4. Evgenia 5. Satoko/ Gold

How did you rank the dance event?

1. Shibs
2. Weaver/Poje
3. Cappelini/Lanotte
4. Chock/Bates
5. Bobrova/Soloviev
6. Hubbell/Donohue

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

Wouldn't say it was clean but I don't think it deserved negative GOE.

MaxSwagg · Dec 15, 2015

How would you rank the ladies and men in terms of components? (Judge the five categories)

For this outing:

Men:
SS/TR/PE/CH/IN

Yuzu = 9.25/9.25/9.50/9.50/9.50 (94.00)
Patrick = 9.75/9.00/9.25/9.25/9.50 (93.50)
Shoma = 9.00/8.25/9.00/9.25/9.00 (89.00)
Javier = 8.50/9.00/8.75/9.00/8.75 (88.00)
Murakami = 8.00/8.00/8.00/8.25/8.00 (80.50)
Jin = 7.25/7.00/6.75/7.25/7.25 (71.00)

Ladies:
SS/TR/PE/CH/IN

Satoko = 875/8.75/8.50/9.75/8.25 (70.40)
Mao = 9.50/8.75/8.00/9.25/8.00 (69.60)
Ashley = 8.00/7.50/8.50/9.00/9.00 (67.20)
Evgenia = 8.25/8.75/8.50/8.25/8.00 (66.80)
Gracie = 8.50/8.25/8.00/9.25/8.25 (66.00)
Elena = 7.50/8.50/8.50/7.75/8.25 (64.80)

How did you rank the dance event?

1. Shibs
2. Weaver/Poje
3. Cappelini/Lanotte
4. Chock/Bates
5. Bobrova/Soloviev
6. Hubbell/Donohue

Is Stolbova and Klimov's Razzano+Double Toe combo clean and + GOE?

No. It should be 3T+3T<+2T with -2 GOE. BUT if D/R can get RLi4 instead of RLi3, Ksenia and Fedor can get the combo points.

dorispulaski · Dec 16, 2015

I haven't watched anything but the dance so far but:

Short Dance

Weaver & Poje. Lovely skaters, but this is a generic program, very well done, IMO.
Chock & Bates (second solely due to to a missed Ravensburger key point) I love this program for them, and I am a sucker for ballroom format.

BIG SPACE

Shibs (mostly due to lack of speed & power, particularly in the Ravensburger) I am not crazy about the dancing doll concept, but they do it very, very well, Maia's sly joy about clocking Alex in the chops was so funny and well done)
Bobrova & Soloviev- very precise and accurate, and improving by the day, but also need more power, and somehow for me Montagues and Capulets does not fit that well with Waltz Masquerade.
Hubbell & Donohue - just not a waltz. Why didn't they use this for an FD, where it would be so much better????
I am with the Eurosport guys in putting Cappellini and Lanotte last in this segment. Too many errors. Too slow.

When added to the FD, I get:

Weaver and Poje
Chock and Bates (great lifts in FD, great spin, twizzle trouble)
Shibs - second in the FD,but Chock not that far behind due to both teams making tech errors.(spin error) Chock anead overall due to the SD.
Bobrova and Soloviev. (love their FD. Too cautiously skated though)
Cappellini and Lanotte (too far back in the SD)
Hubbell and Donohue. (mistake in FD, plus low in SD)

This and That: GPF Recap

TSLDave

Franklin99

AprilS

andromache

StitchMonkey

StitchMonkey

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset

Tastetherainbow

anyanka

senatormls

senatormls

apgold

caitie

StitchMonkey

kwanette

Interspectator

flutzy13

Dark_Ace88

MaxSwagg

Match Penalty

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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