Thanks for the info – I am in the market and was looking at Honda cars. SCRATCH THAT! No Honda for me!

Essentially all “consumer-level” salespeople that work on (or mostly on) commission are pressured towards those kinds of sales tactics.

Good first page, fell down a bit on the second page.

Choice quotes from first page:

?Titties are post-scarcity.?
?The future will be ruled by FARTS.?

But the second page tries to suggest that all industries will go the way of content ones. Which they haven?t, and show no signs of doing.

not if you dont accept cookies and run javascript willy nilly it doesnt.

Having been in and around the car business while growing up, car “sales” have never been notably profitable other than used cars. Car dealerships have always been about the long tail, i.e. service, parts and finance. But, the system built up over the last 50 years is actually rather intelligent in it’s design unlike say RIAA/MPAA because it is completely legal and works to the consumers benefit most of the time while making a viable business model. (Please continue reading before bursting into flame. :))

New car sales have always been a barely break even situation for the most part. (Mass market cars, not Mercedes/Lexus/BMW etc.) Some of the lines salesman give you have a basis in reality. The “cost” of a car is not what the invoice says, it is that plus the cost of the people who peeled the anti-chip plastic off the fenders/hood, the plastic off the interior, the initial wash, the test drive to make sure there are no rattles/etc and of course the rent on the piece of dirt it occupies until sold. Additionally, most dealerships don’t actually “own” the cars they sell, they only actually “rent” them, so they are paying interest on the 20k car sitting on the lot till it sells.

Given that, you are highly unlikely to ever buy a car at dealer cost. I don’t care what numbers you had when you went in, they either break even, make a minimal profit or don’t sell the car for the most part. A dealership simply can not stay in business operating at a loss.

So, the long tail. How dealerships generally pay the rent is via the finance and service departments. (Mostly the service department.) Finance is a trivial item but for a dealership it is instant profit they couldn’t get from the price of the car directly, 0.25% higher interest rate and they make their $500 cost to have kept the car on the lot plus about $500 profit. Dealerships “sell” the contract to the banks and are immediately paid out for the entire contract so subtract car cost, maintenance cost and the rest is profit as if you paid over invoice. This is still not even close to enough to keep the lights at the dealership going.

So, how the long tail works. The car is a razor handle, service is the razor blade. Almost half the cost of a new car is pure profit for the manufacturers but that profit goes away very quickly due to warranty work and such. This is where the symbiosis of dealership and manufacturer work in the consumers benefit though. The manufactures want to keep all that profit if at all possible but they have to put 5/100 warranties on the cars to compete, and still keep the price of the car competitive. So, they shave it down based on relative failure rates and build in a “comfortable” profit on average cost of the warranties.

The dealership on the other hand is hoping the car breaks because warranty work is their profit center. The dealership charges all work and parts back to the manufacturer at a significant markup. (Well the work portion, the parts are at manufacturer defined costs.) In order to make this work, the salesman can’t be TOO huge of a flaming asshole such that you won’t come back even for the warranty work.

An average car over a year needs about $1000 worth of time/effort to correct little defects. So, a dealership breaking even on sales at 200 cars a month is looking to make 200x12x1000=2.4 million a year on “warranty” work alone. Consider 3/4ths of that easily goes to paychecks and regulation compliance costs and dealerships are not making all that much money individually, usually they are less profitable than your local grocery store.

So, I seriously doubt that the individual dealerships have any real problem with any higher education of the buyers and I imagine any problems are coming from the manufactures. Old timer general managers in single dealership towns might be getting pissy but I kinda doubt a dealership in say San Diego, Houston or Orlando cares much because in high competition areas they pretty much always have to give you the base cost and just hope you come back for service anyway. It generally works out, all cars need work and even if you buy at the competitor you might service with your closer dealer since it doesn’t cost you anything for the warranty work.

Just my $0.02 (plus a couple bucks) description of the car industry. 🙂 Not defending them on this, just explaining that they are not the evil empire many folks may believe, given they grew up actually by working “WITH” consumers and not against them.

The car dealership of the future will sell all its cars at or slightly below cost. It will stay in business (barely) by offering free taxi rides in the used cars, but collecting “donations” for them. When every dealership starts doing this, the most innovative car dealerships will also set up a bar and a movie theater, showing free movies every night and making money on the drinks, popcorn and valet parking.

The most profitable businesses of the year 2020 will be those whose actual profits come from an activity at least six times removed from the actual thing that the businesses ostensibly do.

Yay for progress!

I leased a 2012 Honda, what an F’in nightmare. Lied about the sales price, padded the LoJack, Security, Paint/Fabric into the $325 monthly payment. In a CA lease agreement these prices are not broken down. Totally in the stealerships favor. I b!itch and was able to toss the security & get the LoJack & Paint/Fabric reduced & the sales price were originally agreed upon for $250 per month. Plus the bastards held onto my license plate for a month. Thanks alot Jayson at the Moreno Valley, CA Honda stealership. Manufactures need corporate stores, yes they have parts & service, & several variations of the same vehicle to check out. Bare bones & mid range, and fully loaded. Offer these vehicles to be loaned out for two days, possible buyers can check them out, decide if they like them, then you order the vehicle online as to what you want. Price is set by the manufacture. Vehicle is delivered to the corporate store for final inspection. The Pilot is great, but the non-responsive F U attitude from Honda America, I should have went with the Highlander.

I don’t think this is such a bad thing, if it’s used correctly. I’m ok with people knowing how much they should pay and whatnot, as long as they’re willing to pay a fair profit. How much should I be paying for a gallon of milk, for a candy bar, for a computer? These are all subjective based on profits. If you’re willing to pay a profit for buying a car, I think it’s fair.

Honda is one of my car and I love using it because of it’s incredible performance.

Major car dealership such as brooklyn honda dealers should be aware of their customers lifestyle and they can include some financial background check for their customers. Some car dealership offer great deals for their valued customers and those that are loyal to their services.

I think TrueCar is just trying a business strategy, customers just have to be wise about this.

This is absolutely ridiculous! Consumers have every right to educate themselves before making a purchasing or leasing a car.

To be honest. I don’t care what I have to do as long as a get a great price. Think about it, everyone has bills to pay. If someone doesn’t try to lower the price at all then why in the world would they lower the price. If I was a car dealership I would opporate the same way.

One of the most helpful tips when buying a range rover 2013 is to avoid buying on emotion. If you come across a car you fall in love with, take the time to do your research and look for different availability options to get you the best value. You should already have an idea of what to pay before entering the dealership.

I know some car dealers. They told me that they don’t make money by selling cars, they are making money by service of cars, to give a good deal to buyer.

I think it’s funny how people want no hassle prices but they aren’t willing to pay the price listed because they think it’s a rip off.

Again we come back to “there’s about an 8% maybe 10% markup on this car.”

Customers are the real scam artists and rip off con men. I don’t mind you being educated but you run around playing us against each other determined for us to make no money. Oh and all that “back end” stuff we’re supposedly so bad for selling?

It’s accessories or things you WANT to add. Seriously, I don’t hear you crying about them asking if you want to add fries and a drink to your burger…

I respect customers that pay a profit. The rest of you aren’t customers. You’re mooches.

This “i need the best price, you need to price match this” attitude has caused the decline in our economy single handedly over the years.

That’s right. It’s not the banks. it’s not Obama. It’s not taxes.

It’s the “educated” consumer.

Here’s how it works, and why:

You come to my dealership, you buy a car, pay a profit, I make my commission. Or you come to my business, buy my product, pay a profit, and they can afford to pay me, or give me enough work hours to make my bills.

I take my paycheck, and pay profit at other businesses. That profit pays their employees, who are in turn SOMEONE ELSE’S customers. They pay their bills, buy someone’s products, pay a profit, and those employees get paid. And so forth. Until eventually it comes around.

Now, this is the CURRENT consumer mentality:

OMG YOU ARE CHARGING $2 MORE FOR THIS SHIRT THAN THE GUY DOWN THE STREET YOU ARE A RIP OFF ARTIST! *insert other manipulative, rude bullshit here*.

Company price matches. This is no biggie on it’s own, but guess what? Due to website publications and bragging about your deal, everyone then wants it. Pretty soon, profits hit such a low amount, the company has to cut hours to keep their bottom line up. No, they aren’t going to cut it from the top, and you cannot change that by refusing to shop there. Or worse, you start trying to be an ehero and “exposing” what people make a profit on and turn everyone into those annoying “super shoppers.”

So the company now cuts hours, labor, etc to makeup for the loss. These employees then do not have money to pay bills or buy things as much, and the businesses they buy from then suffer in turn. And guess what happens next? the same thing happens to their employees, and the businesses they are customers of too.

Pretty soon everyone is trying to “cut costs” by chewing everyone’s profit out, and business slows down. Economies collapse. People cannot pay rent or mortgages, and banks lose their money too. Banks then collapse, and lay off employees.

All because you wanted a deal.

But what’s the FIRST thing the average customer does? “Oh it’s because banks are greedy.” or “Oh I need to make sure no one makes a profit off me” instead of buying the brand, car, or trim level, or food you can afford.

This one is the most laughable: Oh the president needs to bail us out, the economy is his fault!

Customers and buyers can actually fix the economy by paying a profit, and shutting up and letting businesses charge their fair profits. I know you don’t like the idea that “winning” in a deal causes economical problems, and if it’s just you? Sure. But due to things like truecar.com and all these other “consumer education” sites? Notice how with the addition of the Internet and information our economy is going to shit.

My advice? Sit down, if you like the guy and the product, pay what they’re asking, pay for the customer service, and don’t be a dick to “get a deal”.

Fix the economy by cutting all this “i need to shop 6 places and play every business against each other for a deal” crap.

Economical problems are cause by consumers thinking they are educated, thinking they have a right to dicate what profits a company can make, and being manipulative, lying little assholes.

Don’t believe me? Look at any 3rd world country in economic turmoil that is broken to hell and look at their practices. They do the very things listed above that people say are good ways to shop.

But hey don’t believe me! Do some simple math. No profit or bare profit = less money for employees, therefore less money for other businesses, and less money for YOUR own paycheck in the end when YOUR business gets hit.

I also believe businesses need to do what consumers are doing, and say “no we’re not going to cut each other’s throats anymore” and if anyone sues? Tell the judge. “No, fuck you. I’m not paying that fine, I have a right to protect myself from cheating consumers.”

Long story short: If you see something you like, being sold by a nice guy? Quit your whining, pay up and shut up, or leave, go get treated like shit somewhere cheaper, and don’t whine when you get your discount but get treated bad for ripping businesses off.

in my county that is legal..LOL

It’s just the way of the future that buyers will be informed, with the internet there’s almost no limit to the amount of research that one can do prior to purchasing something, especially a bit-ticket item like a car. I’m sure that manufactures and dealerships were upset in the 1920s when the Kelley Blue Book began because they couldn’t fib about prices as well. It’s the same thing, just a more advanced technology.