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squire
Half-elven
Oct 22 2015, 11:44am
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**The King of the Golden Hall** - 4. ‘Nay, Éomer, you do not fully understand the mind of Master Wormtongue’
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We continue to discuss Chapter III.6 of The Lord of the Rings. Having decided to ride west to war and possibly death, Theoden must now decide what to do with his false counselor, Grima Wormtongue. I want to look at the scene using Eomer as a lens.
IV. Eomer vs. Wormtongue
Hama and two other men drag Wormtongue before the King, pale and blinking in the sunlight. They present the King with his sword, which was in Grima’s locked chest, along with many items apparently stolen from others of the Court. Wormtongue tries to influence Theoden as before, but is thwarted by Theoden’s self-possession and clear sense of purpose. The more Grima tries to twist things his way, the more he discovers how little power he has.
A. How does this scene compare with Faramir’s interrogation of Gollum at Henneth Annun in Book IV?
Gandalf judges Grima, by Eiszmann.
When Grima discovers the King is riding to war and expects him to accompany him as a warrior, he begs to be left in charge of things in Edoras as a “faithful steward”, to “‘keep all things till your return—and I pray that we may see it, though no wise man will deem it hopeful.’”
B. Should we see this as a commentary on the House of Mardil, stewards of Gondor, who also kept all things til the unlooked-for Return of the King?
At this point Eomer laughs, and mocks what he sees as Grima’s cowardice:
‘And if that plea does not excuse you from war, most noble Wormtongue,’ he said, what office of less honour would you accept? To carry a sack of meal up into the mountains—if any man would trust you with it?’ – LotR, III.6
This is echoed by Eomer’s taunt when Theoden orders that Grima be given a horse with which to make his choice of fighting for the King or fleeing to Saruman:
‘After him!’ said Théoden. ‘See that he does no harm to any, but do not hurt him or hinder him. Give him a horse, if he wishes it.’
‘And if any will bear him,’ said Éomer. – ibid.
C. Is this habit of impetuous scorn apparent in Eomer in the other scenes where he appears: meeting the Hunters, at Helm’s Deep, at Isengard, at the Pelennor Fields, or the Last Debate?
But Gandalf chides Eomer for not thinking like a ruler: Grima is not fleeing war, but seeking power. The wizard “in a terrible voice” berates Wormtongue for a traitor, bought by Saruman, seeking Rohan’s destruction, craving the loot after the fall and craving too “the woman you desire”: clearly, Eowyn. That part at least Eomer understood:
‘That I knew already,’ he muttered. ‘For that reason I would have slain him before, forgetting the law of the hall. But there are other reasons.’ – ibid.
D. Do readers understand at this point that Eomer and Eowyn are brother and sister, so that Eomer’s reaction is one of sibling loyalty? Or are we supposed to think they are lovers, so that he is jealous?
E. What are the ‘other reasons’ that Eomer wanted to kill Grima in the King’s presence?
Earlier, Gandalf congratulated Theoden on putting “your trust in Eomer, rather than in a man of crooked mind”. But later, at Helm’s Deep, Theoden will lament that he misses both his old counsellor and his new, meaning Grima and Gandalf.
F. Is Eomer the equal of Grima in the politics of Rohan, either earlier or at this point?
Eomer on horseback, by Price.
Eomer is destined to be King after Theoden’s death. Yet at Isengard Saruman, much like Gandalf here but much more nastily, will instruct him that he has a lot to learn about statecraft. Even Aragorn tells him “you are young” to excuse his poor treatment of strangers on a quest for justice.
G. How ready is Eomer to be King? Was Theoden this callow at his age?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Oct 22 2015, 4:06pm
Post #2 of 11
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Youthful passion is what the doctor ordered
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Really interesting questions, squire. It seems to me that Eomer's youthful passion, which is at times regrettably impulsive, is just what Theoden needs to feel younger again. His “impetuous scorn” appears helpful when Theoden is confused by Saruman at Isengard:
Still Theoden did not answer. Whether he strove with anger or doubt none could say. Eomer spoke.
‘Lord, hear me!’ he said. ‘Now we feel the peril that we were warned of. Have we ridden forth to victory, only to stand at last amazed by an old liar with honey on his forked tongue?...will you parley with this dealer in treachery and murder? Remember Theodred at the Fords, and the grave of Hama in Helm’s Deep!’ When Theoden finally rebukes Saruman, he mentions Hama’s body at Hornburg.
At Pelannor Fields, I think his youthful impulsiveness is again key to turning the tide in battle. Grief stricken, he calls for a reckless, suicide attack.
Then without taking counsel or waiting for the approach of the men of the City, he spurred headlong back to the front of the great host, and blew a horn, and cried aloud for the onset. Over the field rang his clear voice calling: ‘Death! Ride, ride to ruin and the world’s ending!’ …Death they cried with one voice loud and terrible, and gathering speed like a great tide their battle swept about their fallen king and passed, roaring away southwards.’ I’ve never served in the military, but if sport is simulated battle, I’ve experienced a shadow of this in soccer. Nothing quite fires up a team than to have one of your players taken out by an injury inflicted by the other team. A determined rage unites the team in a focused fury. It’s nothing that can be inspired by a coach or logic or strategy; it’s some primitive tribal instinct, I suppose, to protect the community without regard for one’s own well-being. The deaths of Theoden and Eowyn fill the Rohirrim with grief and its Eomer’s impulsive cry for vengeance that ignites their grief and inflames it into rage. Without Eomer, their grief could have left them feeling defeated and despondent, ensuring their defeat.
According to the Appendix, Eomer ruled for 65 years and was called Éadig ('Blessed'). I assume this is due to his respect for Aragorn, and his willingness to learn from him? He “became a great king, and [ruled]… longer than all their kings before him save Aldor the Old…And wherever King Elessar went with war King Eomer went with him…and the White Horse upon Green flew in many winds until Eomer grew old.” So, I get the idea that Eomer needed to be a fighter all of his life, and that the fighting spirit that became bitter under a repressed king was no longer perverted by despair but allow to flourish as it should have been in partnership with King Elessar, and Imrahil of Dol Amroth.
(This post was edited by Entwife Wandlimb on Oct 22 2015, 4:11pm)
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 22 2015, 6:43pm
Post #3 of 11
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How often did Wormtongue get out?
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If Wormtongue was the voice of Saruman in Theoden's court, he must have had relatively consistent secret meetings with Saruman (or an unnamed emissary?). I'd expect Saruman may have come near to Edoras so that Wormtongue wouldn't be long-gone from his place at the King's side.
That said, two points stick out in this section of the chapter. Wormtongue steps out into the sunlight, blinking. While of course anyone in a dark room all day will naturally adjust their eyes once outside, since Tolkien points this out, to me it implies that Wormtongue was long-accustomed to being inside the Great Hall. Then when Gandalf tells Eomer about Wormtongue's plans for his sister, Eomer states he would have done something about it if not for the laws of the hall. If the "law of the hall" meant no bloodshed inside the hall itself, then this may mean Wormtongue didn't necessarily hang around outside the Great Hall much, where Eomer may have been able to "do something about it".
Was Eomer's statement mostly an idle threat, or do we think he may have acted on it given the chance? And did both Theoden and Wormtongue reside in the Hall, hence not even needing to leave it at morning and at night?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Oct 22 2015, 7:41pm
Post #4 of 11
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Speak softly and whomp Grima with a big stick
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“The only time you really live fully is from thirty to sixty. The young are slaves to dreams; the old servants of regrets. Only the middle-aged have all their five senses in the keeping of their wits.”
-Theodore Roosevelt
A. How does this scene compare with Faramir’s interrogation of Gollum at Henneth Annun in Book IV?
Rohirrim:
Behind him cringing between two other men, came Gríma the Wormtongue. His face was very white. His eyes blinked in the sunlight.
Faramir:
"Bring wine for the guests," he said. "And bring the prisoner to me."
The wine was brought, and then Anborn came carrying Gollum. He removed the cover from Gollum's head and set him on his feet standing behind him to support him. Gollum blinked, hooding the malice of his eyes with their heavy pale lids.
Well, the Rohirrim aren’t sitting around drinking during Grima’s ordeal. And then there’s the thing with Faramir suckering Frodo into brandishing a dagger to intimidate Gollum. At least the Rohirrim do their own dirty work.
B. Should we see this as a commentary on the House of Mardil, stewards of Gondor, who also kept all things til the unlooked-for Return of the King?
Are you saying the Council of Rohan might disallow the claim of Eomer’s Heir?
C. Is this habit of impetuous scorn apparent in Eomer in the other scenes where he appears: meeting the Hunters, at Helm’s Deep, at Isengard, at the Pelennor Fields, or the Last Debate?
I’m sure he’d show the exact same attitude towards anyone else who’d had him unjustly thrown in a dungeon so they could have their way with his sister.
D. Do readers understand at this point that Eomer and Eowyn are brother and sister, so that Eomer’s reaction is one of sibling loyalty? Or are we supposed to think they are lovers, so that he is jealous?
Well after "Go, Éowyn sister-daughter!" and "Take back your sword, Éomer, sister-son!" most would catch on, but there’s always someone, however I’d wager Tolkien isn’t writing for him.
E. What are the ‘other reasons’ that Eomer wanted to kill Grima in the King’s presence?
Treason, treachery, and the possibly that Eowyn might not have been the first maiden that Grima finagled to take against her will.
Earlier, Gandalf congratulated Theoden on putting “your trust in Eomer, rather than in a man of crooked mind”. But later, at Helm’s Deep, Theoden will lament that he misses both his old counsellor and his new, meaning Grima and Gandalf.
One might argue Erkenbrand rather than Grima.
F. Is Eomer the equal of Grima in the politics of Rohan, either earlier or at this point?
Like Jefferson Smith was the equal of Boss Jim Taylor in Washington politics (i.e., NOT!), but as Jimmy Stewart showed, goodness, honesty, and sincerity will get the snot kicked out of you, though in the end deus ex machina will always prevail, at least in a Frank Capra film.
G. How ready is Eomer to be King?
Bill Clinton said “No one is ever ready to be president” but he also doesn’t know what the meaning of “is” is, so take that wisdom with a shaker of salt.
Personally I'm seeing Eomer as another Teddy Roosevelt. Or is it vice versa?
Was Theoden this callow at his age?
Just as callow as Thorongil, only Middle Men don’t have the time to uncallow that Numenoreans have.
******************************************
"Mister Frodo, hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good frying pan at your side. I’ve been from one side of this garden to the other, I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Providence controlling everything. There's no Music of the Ainur that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense."
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Oct 22 2015, 7:47pm)
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Al Carondas
Lorien
Oct 23 2015, 1:12am
Post #5 of 11
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C. Is this habit of impetuous scorn apparent in Eomer in the other scenes where he appears: meeting the Hunters, at Helm’s Deep, at Isengard, at the Pelennor Fields, or the Last Debate?
Yes, I think that Eomer does consistently display an unapologetic fierceness in his temperament. I love that about him. His challenge to Gimli at their first meeting is one example - not that it is exceedingly brave with all his men around him, but it is not very politic or restrained either, when a more diplomatic tact was bound to yield better results. I get the feeling that any kind of guile leaves a bad taste in Eomer's mouth - even so much 'guile' as being polite to strangers from whom you desire information.
Actually, I think this is one of the chief reasons for his hatred of Grima. Grima is completely the opposite in character. There are no limits to what he will do to accomplish his ends, while he seems almost to despise courage or forthrightness as a form of weakness.
Eomer also shows the same simple forthrightness at the Last Debate when he states: 'As for myself, I have little knowledge of these deep matters; but I need it not. This I know, and it is enough, that as my friend Aragorn succoured me and my people, so I will aid him when he calls. I will go.'
To me, however, Eomer's character is more uncompromising and fearless than callow. He is not naive, I think. He understands how the game is played. But he is determined not to play it the way that Grima and Saruman do. He is determined not to let politics warp him. He will shoot straight, whatever befalls him. I think (guess really) that Theoden was probably quite similar when he was younger. A bold forthrightness seems part of the Rohirric tradition.
And Entwife Wandlimb has provided what I think are the best examples of how Eomer's fierceness greatly served Rohan. He does prove difficult for Saruman to ensnare with his deceits, and his fearless leadership on the battlefield is absolutely crucial.
"Good Morning!"
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enanito
Rohan
Oct 23 2015, 4:07am
Post #6 of 11
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Gandalf's knowledge of Grima's evil designs on Eowyn?
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D. Do readers understand at this point that Eomer and Eowyn are brother and sister, so that Eomer’s reaction is one of sibling loyalty? Or are we supposed to think they are lovers, so that he is jealous?
So how does Gandalf arrive at this knowledge of Wormtongue's plan regarding Eowyn? He may have been able to discern some info from glances Wormtongue gave her during the meeting in the Hall, but how would Gandalf know that he has long watched her from under his eyelids (heavy-lidded eyes they were), as well as having haunted her footsteps?
How long since Gandalf's last visit to Edoras? Are we to suppose that he has seen the evidence of this during his previous encounters with Theoden, since he seems to already know who and what Wormtongue is all about?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 23 2015, 8:29am
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How brave is Wormtongue being here?
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He tries the same old tricks, but they don't work any more. partly that's because Eomer is there & being listened to, but partly its because his spell is now broken.
I'm not sure whether Wormtongue just hasn't understood that his power base has crumbled so abruptly, or whether (as Gandalf suggests) he knows that this is the end-game and he's losing, but he carries on playing to the end in a deliberate and courageous act, to gain his master every last hour. I call it 'corageos' because there was surely a chance that Wormtongue wouldn't end up getting safe passage to take the news to Saruman. (And that's an act that I think partly reflects Gandalf's quality of mercy, but might also be policy: we see that Gandalf is trying to rehabilitate Saruman, perhaps this is part fo that attempt?)
The rapidity of the turnaround - Wormtongue in charge to Wormtongue reviled and disbelieved - seems perfectly authentic. Possibly 'his spell is broken' quite literally, but use of magic aside, there are real-life examples I can think of where people have been able temporarily to gain a lot of prestige power and influence, only for that all to fall away with incredible rapidity. I'm thinking of Titus Oates, who concocted tales of a fictitious 'Popish Plot" (Britain 1678- 1681) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popish_Plot - or perhaps the rise and fall of McCarthyism in the USA would be a relevant example. I think these examples show individuals can rise to power (and thoroughly abuse it) because they persuade others to believe in a central lie or part-truth. But that central support can quite suddenly become no longer credible, and that washes away their entire power base.
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Oct 23 2015, 12:17pm
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I like the idea of Wormtongue being largely confined to the Hall
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...because inside he's safe from mishaps such as a contrived challenge to battle. It's easy to imagine that he might have made many enemies.
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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Entwife Wandlimb
Lorien
Oct 23 2015, 6:53pm
Post #9 of 11
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What did he learn last summer, after Orthanc?
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Eomer told Aragorn that Gandalf "has been a guest in the land many times in the memory of men, coming as he will, after a season, or after many years...since his last coming in the summer all things have gone amiss...Theoden would not listen to him, and he went away." It seems that Theoden was already opposed to Gandalf, probably under Grima's influence. Gandalf may have observed him and Eowyn at that time?
Jennifer Neville writes an interesting essay in Reading The Lord of the Rings: New Writings on Tolkien's Classic about how the Riders of Rohan are inspired by Beowulf', with both Eomer and Beowulf being the son of the king's sister. She explores how Eowyn is like and unlike the women in Beowulf. She is a hostess like Wealhtheow, a chief mourner like Hildeburh. and arguably most like Freawaru, who was promised in marriage to another kingdom in a political match. Surely Wormtongue viewed Eowyn not just as an object of lust but a means to power and further influence. In other words, Gandalf may not have had to have great insight to pick up on Grima's designs -- it was the obvious power play?
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Oct 24 2015, 7:45am
Post #11 of 11
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Gandalf talked to people and observed things.
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He is the "great communicator" in ME. In addition to being very observant, both last summer and prior visits, he would probably have spoken with Éomer and observed the court carefully.
Éowyn would certainly have been a candidate for a strategic marriage in any Primary World medieval society. As we have discussed from time to time, arranged marriages didn't seem to figure much in Tolkien. Nevertheless, Éowyn's eventual marriage as well as Éomer's would have certainly qualified.
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